Tucson

[Keith]

Good points Chris.. politicians [pauses to spit] need to tone their rhetoric down big time. This lack of respect amongst leaders is filtering down rapidly. They need to be role models.

By the way, anyone noticed how this thread is far more polite than the deer thread?

Keep it up guys. Intelligent discourse needed to solve these kind of problems. Leave the mud in the yard.

 

[Jim Craik]

By the way, anyone noticed how this thread is far more polite than the deer thread?

posted by Keith

We are odd like that

 

[Jim Craik]

When folks that an avarage young person should look up to, listen to and take advise from use words like: "target, take back (from a fairly elected person), don't retreat, reload, help to remove by shooting a fully automatic weapon and second Amendment solutions". An impressionable mind might just think this type of activity is not only OK but actually called for.

We are talking about a Governer and a former VP Candidate. Shouldn't people in these positions try and make America better and safer. Instead they insight deadly violence, for short term personal gain!!!!

How can anyone argue that this type of activity should be put up with?

When what they call for really happens they try and hide their murderous activity.

Shame on them and the people who support them. Concervatives should be condeming this activity in the strongest terms, not trying to defend it (do you really want more of this type of talk).

Yes Al, I also condem Obamas very poorly chosen words about Phili sports fans. It is not acceptable, he should know better.

 

[Keith]

If you look at this fellow's mug shot, he appears to be just capable of receiving shoot-to-kill orders from a bowl of Rice Crispies than any website. As I mentioned earlier, I believe we need to redirect the rhetoric to something useful in addressing the societal treatment of those with serious mental illness.

Here are some frightening parallels.

Mark David Chapman Mark David Chapman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jared Lee Loughner Jared Lee Loughner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You must forgive me Veek as I live in a society largely without any issue with guns and as far as I know, it is just not possible to mow down a line of people with a knife before someone points out our so-called "knife problem".

Surely to focus on a "nutcase" ignores the basic issue of exactly how nutcases get hold of weapons and why these weapons are freely available to them?

This Second Amendment thing was written at a time when it was necessary to defend oneself and without wishing to diss any of your ancient and sacred rights as citizens, doesn't this written-in-stone edict actually infer that you all prefer to live like cowboys, or at least the Hollywood version? (If you're shot, within 5 minutes a magic bandana will enable you to run like a deer... Oh, ooops) And doesn't this same philosophy permeate down to, and reinforce, American attitude to foreign policy?

I am sorry, but I don't get it.. and that doesn't mean I'm agin it, it just means I don't get it... :huh:

If my words seem a little harsh, I'm not trying to be rude seriously, I'm just a little bit blunt at times.

 

[Nick]

You must forgive me Veek as I live in a society largely without any issue with guns and as far as I know, it is just not possible to mow down a line of people with a knife before someone points out our so-called "knife problem".

Surely to focus on a "nutcase" ignores the basic issue of exactly how nutcases get hold of weapons and why these weapons are freely available to them?

This Second Amendment thing was written at a time when it was necessary to defend oneself and without wishing to diss any of your ancient and sacred rights as citizens, doesn't this written-in-stone edict actually infer that you all prefer to live like cowboys, or at least the Hollywood version? (If you're shot, within 5 minutes a magic bandana will enable you to run like a deer... Oh, ooops) And doesn't this same philosophy permeate down to, and reinforce, American attitude to foreign policy?

I am sorry, but I don't get it.. and that doesn't mean I'm agin it, it just means I don't get it... :huh:

If my words seem a little harsh, I'm not trying to be rude seriously, I'm just a little bit blunt at times.

Keith,

Seems a bit churlish just saying +1

but +1

 

[Mark]

The world is going down the :toilet:

And in all fairness, the UK is not immune to mass shootings

 

[TimB]

Give me liberty or give me death sounds like pretty radical rhetoric too. As Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I find it pretty disgusting that anyone tries to exploit the actions of a madman to advance their political ideology

 

[Jim Craik]

I find it pretty disgusting that anyone tries to exploit the actions of a madman to advance their political ideology<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Posted by TimB

Tim

I find it VERY disgusting that someone would permote gun violence to advance their political ideology and for short term personal gain!!!

 

[TimB]

I am not promoting anything of the such merely pointing out that trying to draw a link between Palin, the teaparty or anyother group in an attempt to explain this horrible tragedy is incredibly misguided and weakens any argument you may have on the legitimate issue of gun ownership by insane people

 

[Chris P.]

Give me liberty or give me death sounds like pretty radical rhetoric too. As Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I find it pretty disgusting that anyone tries to exploit the actions of a madman to advance their political ideology

This is the part I don't get. Who is promoting political ideology? That is a paper thin wall you are erecting to hide from a very real issue. Myself and others have been bringing this up as a non-partisan political problem this country faces, yet someone like you can only see it as a partisan one. Who is the partisan one here? The talking heads from the right are making this a political issue at least as much as the ones they are accusing by ignoring the very real threat that our partisan politics have become.

BTW - Give me liberty or give me death is not hate speech or anything close to radical rhetoric. Do you actually see it that way?

 

[Jim Craik]

Tim,

I'm very interested to know, why do you think the former VP candadate and Governer said those things (over and over) and what reaction were they looking for?

It seems to me that they were calling for gun violence against this very politicion. Right after they call for gun violence we have gun violence agaist this very person.

Drawing a link between the two seems more than obvious to me.

 

[Chris P.]

I am not promoting anything of the such merely pointing out that trying to draw a link between Palin, the teaparty or anyother group in an attempt to explain this horrible tragedy is incredibly misguided and weakens any argument you may have on the legitimate issue of gun ownership by insane people

Ummm, ok, but who here said anything about gun ownership?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

All this brings to mind Chris Mathews asking his gun advocate guest last night about any other country that has had a much violence towards politicians as the US. He obviously lives in a bubble and is not aware of Pakistan's Benazir Bhutto or the governor that was killed recently. There have been assinations worldwide, Mexico, who's gun laws are super strict (Full background check along with multiple evaluations, and only one place to purchase guns) has assasinations and wholesale slaughter of 10s of thousands. This in no way justifies or condones what happened here in Tucson Saturday. We live in a violent world. I guess those who are making political hay over this believe that the shooter was from the right. From his reading matter one would think he was from the far left....................................

 

[Chris P.]

All this brings to mind Chris Mathews asking his gun advocate guest last night about any other country that has had a much violence towards politicians as the US. He obviously lives in a bubble and is not aware of Pakistan's Benazir Bhutto or the governor that was killed recently. There have been assinations worldwide, Mexico, who's gun laws are super strict (Full background check along with multiple evaluations, and only one place to purchase guns) has assasinations and wholesale slaughter of 10s of thousands. This in no way justifies or condones what happened here in Tucson Saturday. We live in a violent world. I guess those who are making political hay over this believe that the shooter was from the right. From his reading matter one would think he was from the far left....................................

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not saying anything about the shooter's political affiliation. All I'm saying is that the political climate in general has degenerated overall.

From his reading matter one would think he was from the far left. Oh jeez... did you look into the matter? It seems very hard to tell. What Does Jared Lee Loughner Believe? - Political Hotsheet - CBS News It could go both ways.

 

[Jim Craik]

Al,
I do not recall anyone here saying the shooter was from the right. I have said and do believe the shooter was influnced by the retoric from the right during the last election.

I guess Tim is not going to answere the question, so Al or anyone else:

Why do you think that the former VP candidate and the Arizona Governer continually used gun and shooting referances when talking about the Demo candidates during the last election?

We had the "gun sight targets, take our country back, don't retreat, reload, help remove Representative Giffords by shooting a fully automatic weapon and Second Amendment solutions"

So, Al why were they continually using this sort of talk. Were they trying to gain support from people who like this sort of talk, trying to raise money from gun folks or perhaps they meant just what thay said.

Please give us your thoughts.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

This topic's event seems to highlight the way America communicates (and hence...thinks?). We best define a struggle as a "war on (you name the subject - cancer, drugs, terrorism, poverty, bla bla bla)" in conspicuously frequent terms, and that 'combative' terminology is the way we represent opposing viewpoints any more (graphics with cross-hairs would be one example). So sad.

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It would appear our 'civilized' western social demeanor is slowly morphing toward an alignment with civilizations we most abhor. I'm affraid to even consider where our country will be in 20 years.<o></o>

 

[40 Bud]

Veek, thank you for your cogent comments. The parrallels being drawn with violence and the conservative movement are typical spin master rhetoric. The fact that politicians have not supported the constitution, continually spend money we don't have on programs we can't afford and lie to us to acheive their goals apparently has nothing to do with forming attitudes -only the call to change things is to blame for forming attitudes according to our Palin and Tea Party fearing friends. So spout on Jim with your BS and believe what you like, that is your right. Me, I am going to continue pushing for change and pray that idots like the Arizona shooter,the Fort Hood assasin and others like them receive the swift justice they deserve and disappear from the face of the earth instead of setting in a jail cell for the next 30 or 40 years.

 

[Jim Craik]

Bud,

Perhaps you can answere the question?

Bud this is the second time you have accused me of posting "BS" please do me the favor of telling us what I said here that was not true, thanks.

 

[Graham]

The fact that politicians have not supported the constitution, continually spend money we don't have on programs we can't afford and lie to us to acheive their goals apparently has nothing to do with forming attitudes.

Come on now - Leave G Dubya out of this. He's long gone now...

Oh, I get it -you meant Obama. My apologies, because for a minute there I could have sworn you were talking about the last incumbent administration that got you into this mess...:worried:

 

[Keith]

All this brings to mind Chris Mathews asking his gun advocate guest last night about any other country that has had a much violence towards politicians as the US. He obviously lives in a bubble and is not aware of Pakistan's Benazir Bhutto or the governor that was killed recently. There have been assinations worldwide, Mexico, who's gun laws are super strict (Full background check along with multiple evaluations, and only one place to purchase guns) has assasinations and wholesale slaughter of 10s of thousands. This in no way justifies or condones what happened here in Tucson Saturday. We live in a violent world. I guess those who are making political hay over this believe that the shooter was from the right. From his reading matter one would think he was from the far left....................................

But they're all (US) 'client' states.... Al, if you live by the gun you'll probably... well, you know.

The problem I have with all of this is it is a bi-partisan problem the world over, and what might historically be written in blood doesn't mean we can't change the established order. No-one can deny things are going down the tube and we are trying to fight idealism with ageing rhetoric. If we are not going to reinvent a religion (Swaggart, shut the fuck up) then we have to reinvent ourselves in a way that speaks softly and carry a large stick, but not both.

Big picture comes to mind, at least for me...