If you look at the gears in the back of a quick change you see them as straight up and down. Just picture the shafts at a offset from that centerline, one to the left of center and one to the right of center. I wish I knew how to scan things on the computer cause a picture would make this easy to understand.
Want an All(most) American Transaxle?
- Thread starter jac mac
- Start date
Is this what you mean, if so remember you have to get your input under or over the Ring gear carrier. While many examples on the site are probably @ around 14", when you get into the rear geometry the ideal is somewhat lower with reference to axle plunge & CV angles being kept to a minimum. The diff units available for QC rears ( apart from the spools ) all have relatively large dias which dictate that the unput shaft must be virtually directly under the pinion & require the 3.5" center dim to clear, best you check that before you drag lover-boy away from his current tasks!
Aluminum shavings cost more than MDF. That plus your 10" R&P have also added about 2" to the overall length.
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I think you are seeing what I am trying to do . The machining will also be run on wood, initially. My lovesick machinist has done pattern making for versatile tractors while working for another friend. They basically machined out what they wanted in wood and made their moldsfrom that. Why have you not given any thought to the 8.8 rear gears? I imagine it has to do with the non availability of reverse cut gears?
Do you plan to incorporate the quick change aspect to your design? If so regular rotation gears are acceptable.
Do you plan to incorporate the quick change aspect to your design? If so regular rotation gears are acceptable.
Jac:
My thoughts are on the basic way to machine the castings. There are various ways to accomplish it. The non cnc old school way is to find a horizontal boring mill. With the casting faced and and properly held down you could bore each bore with a long bar.Some boring mills have outer bar support that could help with deflection. I used to do earth moving machine repair and we would bore the bottom hitch pin bores on a catapiller 631 earth mover there were 4 ears 36" over all length with no outer support 4" bores. Better drawings would help.On a cnc side you could even use a lathe if to had access to a big face plate or fixture to hold it in place on the spindle. Just slow RPMs Let me know what you need I can write you some programs.
My thoughts are on the basic way to machine the castings. There are various ways to accomplish it. The non cnc old school way is to find a horizontal boring mill. With the casting faced and and properly held down you could bore each bore with a long bar.Some boring mills have outer bar support that could help with deflection. I used to do earth moving machine repair and we would bore the bottom hitch pin bores on a catapiller 631 earth mover there were 4 ears 36" over all length with no outer support 4" bores. Better drawings would help.On a cnc side you could even use a lathe if to had access to a big face plate or fixture to hold it in place on the spindle. Just slow RPMs Let me know what you need I can write you some programs.
Dave, I am sure Lim would have this all figured out as to what might be reqd in the machine work side before we finished the first cup of coffee. I could put pics of the Liberty stuff up to help explain /confuse, but that might get us into trouble with them or the Forum at this point. Machining on a low volume or one off basis doesnt phase me with regard to my own stuff, & if I was to venture a perfect solution might be for Liberty or Richmond to undertake this as they already make/sell most of the stuff. To that end if anyone reading this has contacts on the fast track @ either of those companys then do yourself & the folk around here a favour... nothing ventured nothing gained... I simply have no personal use for this concept myself...hell I dont even have a suitable car to put it in yet & at this rate never will.
Certainly raises some interesting possibilities particularly with the cutaway carrier which would allow smaller shaft center dimensions. That is what we would normally call a 'flipped' cut R&P as the pinion shaft pass's the carrier to get to the pinion.
Three concerns straight away- strength in regard to the 7.625" Ring gear, the limited number of traction options available at this point, & the offset from c/l of the output shafts if used in a T/axle , although I see stronger half shafts etc are already being made by aftermart folk.
Three concerns straight away- strength in regard to the 7.625" Ring gear, the limited number of traction options available at this point, & the offset from c/l of the output shafts if used in a T/axle , although I see stronger half shafts etc are already being made by aftermart folk.
I just thought people might be interested to know that I have taken up this cause. I originally joined this group specifically because it has the most factual information as to transaxles of ANY that I have come across on the internet. In fact if anyone cares to research it, at one time I was planning on designing a transaxle based on commonly available components. This was just the push I needed to re-engage myself with the endeavor.
I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but I have 3 transaxles on the drawing boards, so to speak.
First is a "low-bucks" transaxle utilizing T5 internals and a Dana 44 differential. Second is a "medium-bucks" transaxle utilitzing T56 internals and a Dana 60 differential. Third is a "big-bucks" transaxle utilizing Richmond 5 & 6 speed internals and a 10" quick-change ring & pinion.
All of these should still be stronger than the alternatives...I am placing the T5 based transaxle between an Audi/Cayman box and a flipped 996 box...with a price tag (new components only) TOPPING at around $5500...and the ability to have this unit serviced locally by any competent transmission shop. The T56 based transaxle is between a G50/52 and G50/50 in strength and should come to market TOPPING around $7500...again all new components, with service at the local level. The "big daddy" gearbox will be available around $10,000 (built to the hilt) and will be comparable in durability to the Ricardo GT gearbox.
I am fortunate to have access to quality machining facilities with excess capacity, thanks to the crummy economy, and my prior career as a machinist will serve me well in regards to economical fixturing and production processes. I also have access to several local foundries and heat-treat facilities for the castings.
If anyone has any questions regarding these planned offerings, please feel free to ask me.
In due course, as I get closer to actual physical products, I will be needing beta testers, and of course, will become a proud paying sponsor of this sight.
I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but I have 3 transaxles on the drawing boards, so to speak.
First is a "low-bucks" transaxle utilizing T5 internals and a Dana 44 differential. Second is a "medium-bucks" transaxle utilitzing T56 internals and a Dana 60 differential. Third is a "big-bucks" transaxle utilizing Richmond 5 & 6 speed internals and a 10" quick-change ring & pinion.
All of these should still be stronger than the alternatives...I am placing the T5 based transaxle between an Audi/Cayman box and a flipped 996 box...with a price tag (new components only) TOPPING at around $5500...and the ability to have this unit serviced locally by any competent transmission shop. The T56 based transaxle is between a G50/52 and G50/50 in strength and should come to market TOPPING around $7500...again all new components, with service at the local level. The "big daddy" gearbox will be available around $10,000 (built to the hilt) and will be comparable in durability to the Ricardo GT gearbox.
I am fortunate to have access to quality machining facilities with excess capacity, thanks to the crummy economy, and my prior career as a machinist will serve me well in regards to economical fixturing and production processes. I also have access to several local foundries and heat-treat facilities for the castings.
If anyone has any questions regarding these planned offerings, please feel free to ask me.
In due course, as I get closer to actual physical products, I will be needing beta testers, and of course, will become a proud paying sponsor of this sight.
Exciting idea Wyoming from a consumers point of view.
I have a C5 Corvette with the 6 speed option. First is about 2.66, sixth is .50, and r & p is 3.42. I really like these ratios and would have no other manual transmission in a street car.
The new T56 Magnum is available with the same ratios, but a sixth ratio of .62 and fifth of .80. I think that would be even better than what I have. Especially in a component car that should shave almost 1000 lbs off the weight of the Vette.
Fourth gear is great for city street type driving. Fifth is great for mountain type roads. And, sixth is perfect for sustained freeway type running. Seventy mph is about 1500 or so rpm. And I get 30 mpg to boot!
I guess I'm trying to say I like your "middle bucks" option.
One thing I don't understand about transaxles. Isn't a quick change type gear set required on the back to reverse rotation of the transmission main shaft because the pinion gear would be rotated around 180 degrees to point to the rear, and therefore require reverse rotation from the main shaft?
One source you may be interested in is www.rpmtransmission.com. They build tough Corvette differentials and automatic transmissions for drag race cars with 750 rwhp or so. They now offer the Quaffe gear type LSD for any differential. I think they ask about $1400 for it.
I have a C5 Corvette with the 6 speed option. First is about 2.66, sixth is .50, and r & p is 3.42. I really like these ratios and would have no other manual transmission in a street car.
The new T56 Magnum is available with the same ratios, but a sixth ratio of .62 and fifth of .80. I think that would be even better than what I have. Especially in a component car that should shave almost 1000 lbs off the weight of the Vette.
Fourth gear is great for city street type driving. Fifth is great for mountain type roads. And, sixth is perfect for sustained freeway type running. Seventy mph is about 1500 or so rpm. And I get 30 mpg to boot!
I guess I'm trying to say I like your "middle bucks" option.
One thing I don't understand about transaxles. Isn't a quick change type gear set required on the back to reverse rotation of the transmission main shaft because the pinion gear would be rotated around 180 degrees to point to the rear, and therefore require reverse rotation from the main shaft?
One source you may be interested in is www.rpmtransmission.com. They build tough Corvette differentials and automatic transmissions for drag race cars with 750 rwhp or so. They now offer the Quaffe gear type LSD for any differential. I think they ask about $1400 for it.
Thank you VicM. My inclination to go with a T56 based gearbox is primarily due to its use in so many high-powered production vehicles...the Viper, the Corvette, the GTO, Camaros & Firebirds, the Shelby GT500 Mustang, the SRT10 pickup...am I missing any?
For the "average" component car, this transaxle will offer the most bang for the buck, due to it's available gear ratios. For this transaxle I will not be offering a Q/C setup, I will be using a reverse-rotation Dana 60 ring & pinion (as commonly found in 4wd trucks) with a direct feed from the input shaft. I can't give away all my secrets just yet. For the real DIY'er, I am considering offering a fully machined case with all necessary components for an individual to assemble their own transaxle. Of course this will not come with a warranty, other than for a defect-free case.
For the all-out balls to wall street cars and race-cars, I feel that the Richmond based 5 & 6 speed based transaxle will be the go-to gearbox. With a couple of innovative changes, this box will be damned near impossible to kill...though I am sure that it will be possible. I'm betting the clutch will give up the ghost before any of the gears do! In fact this box will be around the same weight as the T56 based box, but will allow for quick ratio changes via the Q/C design for on-site tuning.
For the "average" component car, this transaxle will offer the most bang for the buck, due to it's available gear ratios. For this transaxle I will not be offering a Q/C setup, I will be using a reverse-rotation Dana 60 ring & pinion (as commonly found in 4wd trucks) with a direct feed from the input shaft. I can't give away all my secrets just yet.
For the real DIY'er, I am considering offering a fully machined case with all necessary components for an individual to assemble their own transaxle. Of course this will not come with a warranty, other than for a defect-free case.For the all-out balls to wall street cars and race-cars, I feel that the Richmond based 5 & 6 speed based transaxle will be the go-to gearbox. With a couple of innovative changes, this box will be damned near impossible to kill...though I am sure that it will be possible. I'm betting the clutch will give up the ghost before any of the gears do! In fact this box will be around the same weight as the T56 based box, but will allow for quick ratio changes via the Q/C design for on-site tuning.
Thank YOU Jac-Mac...you were the inspiration to give it the go-ahead. I had long ago given up on the idea.
It is also a sad fact of the economy that this is now possible. Sounds contradictory, I know. There is alot of manufacturing infrastructure around these parts that are idling due to the slow-down. Not that a few gearboxes will send the business to a full roiling boil, but there are many shops that are starving for work...and dropping their rates to boot. My hope is to get a few days of machine time a week for them, with my products coming out the other side, shiny and new, ready to be assembled and sent off to eagerly waiting customers.
It is also a sad fact of the economy that this is now possible. Sounds contradictory, I know. There is alot of manufacturing infrastructure around these parts that are idling due to the slow-down. Not that a few gearboxes will send the business to a full roiling boil, but there are many shops that are starving for work...and dropping their rates to boot. My hope is to get a few days of machine time a week for them, with my products coming out the other side, shiny and new, ready to be assembled and sent off to eagerly waiting customers.
I think you've identified a very promising marketing niche Wyoming. It seems that everyone wanting to build a car needs to solve the transaxle question first. All the existing solutions seem to have problems attached. If it's not durability, it's availability, repair parts, or initial cost that seems to be everyone's obstacle.
I like your DIY option. I think with the correct OEM manuals, the average enthusiast could put the unit together, and learn a lot doing it.
Good luck with seeing it through.:thumbsup:
I like your DIY option. I think with the correct OEM manuals, the average enthusiast could put the unit together, and learn a lot doing it.
Good luck with seeing it through.:thumbsup:
Hi Jac
Looks like your transaxle is in progress.
When will you be melting some material??
I like the Kiwis DIY way ..mate.......
I visited a retired acquaintance three months ago, to discuss about engine casting. He did all by himself, design, casting cylinder head and machining other performance parts for race car during the 60's. He also showed me some of the special machine that he has built for his hobbies.
He built simple attachment to his vertical kondia milling machine and driving by right angle head to do the line bore. :thumbsup: How's about line bore on the lathe machine???????:thinking:
LIM
Looks like your transaxle is in progress.
When will you be melting some material??
I like the Kiwis DIY way ..mate.......
I visited a retired acquaintance three months ago, to discuss about engine casting. He did all by himself, design, casting cylinder head and machining other performance parts for race car during the 60's. He also showed me some of the special machine that he has built for his hobbies.
He built simple attachment to his vertical kondia milling machine and driving by right angle head to do the line bore. :thumbsup: How's about line bore on the lathe machine???????:thinking:
LIM
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
When I began my GT40 project ten years ago, the first item I bought for the car was the ZF transaxle. I paid $7500 for it- a NOS BMW M1 spare with the orange BMW parts tags still on it- and probably spent $5000 to get it converted to fit in the GT40. Had Chris Melia's ZFQ been available then, I would have done that instead. There is definitely a nice for a good-quality robust transaxle that will fit these cars. Chris is the only one that has brought one to market AFAIK.
I have a Tremec TKO600 in my Cobra and love it. Is the T56 transmission similar to a Tremec? The shifting of the Tremec and the ratio spacing is about as good as I have ever seen. And it is good for 600hp or so they tell me.
I have a Tremec TKO600 in my Cobra and love it. Is the T56 transmission similar to a Tremec? The shifting of the Tremec and the ratio spacing is about as good as I have ever seen. And it is good for 600hp or so they tell me.
Hi Lim,
Just a note to you & others, I am not involved in any way other than comments on this thread with Wyomings endeavours. This thread was as a result of all the info I had gathered in reseach & seemed like a waste of good info not to share.
I will still be doing my own transaxle as per my 'DIY MKIV' in the build threads, its more in keeping with my own interest. See you in Feb if not before, hopefully I might have some alloy poured by then!!!
Wyoming, please study the attached dwg carefully , I would hate to see you box yourself into a corner in the first round. I have concerns with the load & life of the rev cut R&P you hinted at using.
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I Also have a concern that I want to throw out there regarding existing transmissions/ratios for our projects. I have found that what ratios work well in a heavy production car doesn't always work well in a light project maybe intended for track/sporting use. Usually modern production boxes have very low 1st gears(2.4 and up) to get those heavy Corvettes,Mustangs,Viper,etc... off the line and then a very tall 5th or 6th to cruise and get better emissions/mileage. However put those ratios into a car with different tire diameters and weights and the ratios will feel totally different. So just make sure to run any possible ratio choices through one of the many ratio/speed calculators available online before ordering.
Everyone I spoke with in the beginning of my project told me that the 930 box had the best ratios for a V8 in a reasonable price range. After a few events I could not deal with the fact that I would be out of 1st gear in a flash(almost useless) and 4th was much too tall. Before I ordered gears for it I spent many late nights with a speed/ratio calculator running through every option before I pulled the trigger and ordered.
Just my .02, make sure a stock box transmission's ratios will work for you with your intended tire size before committing.
Everyone I spoke with in the beginning of my project told me that the 930 box had the best ratios for a V8 in a reasonable price range. After a few events I could not deal with the fact that I would be out of 1st gear in a flash(almost useless) and 4th was much too tall. Before I ordered gears for it I spent many late nights with a speed/ratio calculator running through every option before I pulled the trigger and ordered.
Just my .02, make sure a stock box transmission's ratios will work for you with your intended tire size before committing.
Harley uses a shift dog instead of synro's and a shift cam of one gear up or down and most importantly a aftermarket builder of better than stock transmissions is Baker who was a GM transmision engineer . Prehaps if he was aware that a secondary market for american made products existed he might be interested in building transaxles , just a thought .
The T56 was originally a Borg Warner product, then all tooling and rights were sold to Tremec, so yes a T56 (now referred to as the T6060, as an improved design) is not only similar, it is in fact the same.
