Want an All(most) American Transaxle?

Wyoming, please study the attached dwg carefully , I would hate to see you box yourself into a corner in the first round. I have concerns with the load & life of the rev cut R&P you hinted at using.

I do appreciate the concern Jac Mac!!

Not being a degreed professional (Mechanical Engineer or Industrial Design) I am always on the lookout for useful advice and knowledge (otherwise uniformed and unaware is all I will ever be!) that is helpful in accomplishing a goal.

I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that a reverse rotation ring & pinion are cut with the teeth curving in the opposite direction, so that the gears are in proper loading.

Thank you for the heads up...now you have gotten my curiousity up. Looks like I will be discussing ALOT of technical matters with a few engineer friends as well as the engineers for the vendors I will be using (Richmond gear, Tremec, etc)

As always, it is good to know that there are more than a few competent individuals on these boards to bounce ideas off of and receive quality feedback from! :thumbsup:
 
I do appreciate the concern Jac Mac!!

Not being a degreed professional (Mechanical Engineer or Industrial Design) I am always on the lookout for useful advice and knowledge (otherwise uniformed and unaware is all I will ever be!) that is helpful in accomplishing a goal.

I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that a reverse rotation ring & pinion are cut with the teeth curving in the opposite direction, so that the gears are in proper loading.:

Thats correct, but you missed the point of how this effects the pinion brgs & how the 'new' loads are now applied to them when you reverse the pinion rotation. The Hypoid factor will now cause the pinion to 'pull' on the front pinion bearing & pinion retainer nut. When you consider the area of the nut & thread versus the effective dia & seated area of the pinion brg closest to the pinion gear in the conventional application its far from satisfactory.
 
From what I am aware of via 4WD and offroading experience, that is why many of the newer aftermarket front axle offerings have a flipped pinion...to address this very issue.

And for the purpose of a transaxle, a flipped pinion is the ticket for sportscar use...I don't understand the affinity, want or desire for the stinkbug stance and high center of gravity location of an engine/drivetrain configuration where the axle center height is below crankshaft level...as almost all currently manufactured transaxles are.

Is that not why Porsche transaxles are flipped, to raise the axle center height?

Keep the feedback coming...and that wonderful Kiwi intellect/common sense vantage point! It reminds me alot of the cowboy/farmboy mindset here :D

Thats correct, but you missed the point of how this effects the pinion brgs & how the 'new' loads are now applied to them when you reverse the pinion rotation. The Hypoid factor will now cause the pinion to 'pull' on the front pinion bearing & pinion retainer nut. When you consider the area of the nut & thread versus the effective dia & seated area of the pinion brg closest to the pinion gear in the conventional application its far from satisfactory.
 
From what I am aware of via 4WD and offroading experience, that is why many of the newer aftermarket front axle offerings have a flipped pinion...to address this very issue.

And for the purpose of a transaxle, a flipped pinion is the ticket for sportscar use...I don't understand the affinity, want or desire for the stinkbug stance and high center of gravity location of an engine/drivetrain configuration where the axle center height is below crankshaft level...as almost all currently manufactured transaxles are.

Is that not why Porsche transaxles are flipped, to raise the axle center height?

Keep the feedback coming...and that wonderful Kiwi intellect/common sense vantage point! It reminds me alot of the cowboy/farmboy mindset here :D

The Porsche transaxles are flipped to get the rotation going the right way. It just so happens that you also get the advantage of moving the output to a position above the crank centerline.
 
First is a "low-bucks" transaxle utilizing T5 internals and a Dana 44 differential. Second is a "medium-bucks" transaxle utilitzing T56 internals and a Dana 60 differential. Third is a "big-bucks" transaxle utilizing Richmond 5 & 6 speed internals and a 10" quick-change ring & pinion.

.

Here is an idea for you, rather then have a mid range using the t-56 and a high end using the Richmond you could have both using the t-56 and have the “high” end run the g-force version of the t-56 which will handle over 800ft-lb of torque That way the casing between the mid and high would be the same.

G-Force Transmissions and Long Shifters


Or skip both and run a tremec 6060 which off the shelf could handle over 600ft-lb in a 3500lb car, good ratios as well.
 

Randy V

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Or skip both and run a tremec 6060 which off the shelf could handle over 600ft-lb in a 3500lb car, good ratios as well.

ZR1 Corvette version only...

The 6060 is being used in other cars as well including the new 2010 Camaro SS with the LS3.

There are different gearsets for the different cars.
 
That would be possible, but you are looking at an expensive upgrade for minimal gain using the T56/T6060 for an "ultimate" transaxle.

9310 alloy is an EXPENSIVE and difficult to machine material for making gears and shafts from...which drives the price up even further. Sometimes it is possible to spec oneself out of the ballpark in a quest to upgrade just a "little" bit more, with minor increases in performance costing much more than the original improvements. 9310 is the material used in the G-Force upgraded transmissions, it is commonly found in helicopter gearboxes (where failure is not tolerable).

The shaft center-distance is the main limiting factor regarding strength in gear boxes, with gear width being the next limiting factor. 85mm shaft center-distance for the T56/T6060 and 3.5" for the Richmond. 85mm is just under 3 3/8", and 3.5" is just under 89mm. 85mm shaft center-distance also happens to be the same as the Porsche G50 and newer 996/997 gearboxes.

So in reality, you could have a Porsche gearbox be just as "strong" as a T56/T6060-based G-force transmission by replacing those gear & shaft materials with 9310, which just makes those boxes even MORE expensive than they are already...which is not the point of this whole exercise...affordability, availability and serviceability is.

By utilizing the T56/T6060 I am capitalizing on affordability of parts (mass production makes individual pieces cheaper to make), availability of parts (it is the only 6 speed manual transmission used in domestic production performance vehicles), and serviceability of parts (since most local transmissions shops have at least some experience with rebuilding T56/T6060 transmissions). All of this makes it possible to offer builders a gearbox that is AT LEAST as strong as a Porsche box, without the premium price tag. We're talking no more than $5500 for a BRAND NEW T56/T6060-based box, using all new components...versus a $5500+ USED Porsche box, with used components, possibly needing replacements and servicing (all of which is going to cost mucho dinero).

For the amount of performance gain spent on adding G-Force components to my transaxle, you could have a MUCH stronger box using standard off-the-shelf components from Richmond in my "big-dog" transaxle. Different spectrum of the same markets really. T56/T6060-based transaxle for street/light track use...Richmond/QC-based transaxle for full-track/high-power street use. BOTH using STOCK PRODUCTION PARTs, commonly available and serviceable, thus making them AFFORDABLE.

This is a business venture after-all. I want to offer these transaxles to builders at a decent price while still turning a profit. There will be no free upgrades, because ALL upgrades have a cost, and all labor has a cost. What I WILL offer is a great product at a great price point, with great service attached. When these transaxles come to market, I will have a full network of researched and referrable shops to service these boxes in the aftermarket, complete assembly manuals, parts lists for non-propietary pieces (gears, shafts, ring & pinion) and replacement components for all propietary pieces. Just like a full-fledged "big" manufacturer, with complete transparency for the consumer...which is something the "big" manufacturers WILL NOT do.

Here is an idea for you, rather then have a mid range using the t-56 and a high end using the Richmond you could have both using the t-56 and have the “high” end run the g-force version of the t-56 which will handle over 800ft-lb of torque That way the casing between the mid and high would be the same.
G-Force Transmissions and Long Shifters
Or skip both and run a tremec 6060 which off the shelf could handle over 600ft-lb in a 3500lb car, good ratios as well.
 
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That would be possible, but you are looking at an expensive upgrade for minimal gain using the T56/T6060 for an "ultimate" transaxle.

9310 alloy is an EXPENSIVE and difficult to machine material for making gears and shafts from...which drives the price up even further. Sometimes it is possible to spec oneself out of the ballpark in a quest to upgrade just a "little" bit more, with minor increases in performance costing much more than the original improvements. 9310 is the material used in the G-Force upgraded transmissions, it is commonly found in helicopter gearboxes (where failure is not tolerable).

The shaft center-distance is the main limiting factor regarding strength in gear boxes, with gear width being the next limiting factor. 85mm shaft center-distance for the T56/T6060 and 3.5" for the Richmond. 85mm is just under 3 3/8", and 3.5" is just under 89mm. 85mm shaft center-distance also happens to be the same as the Porsche G50 and newer 996/997 gearboxes.

So in reality, you could have a Porsche gearbox be just as "strong" as a T56/T6060-based G-force transmission by replacing those gear & shaft materials with 9310, which just makes those boxes even MORE expensive than they are already...which is not the point of this whole exercise...affordability, availability and serviceability is.

By utilizing the T56/T6060 I am capitalizing on affordability of parts (mass production makes individual pieces cheaper to make), availability of parts (it is the only 6 speed manual transmission used in domestic production performance vehicles), and serviceability of parts (since most local transmissions shops have at least some experience with rebuilding T56/T6060 transmissions). All of this makes it possible to offer builders a gearbox that is AT LEAST as strong as a Porsche box, without the premium price tag. We're talking no more than $5500 for a BRAND NEW T56/T6060-based box, using all new components...versus a $5500+ USED Porsche box, with used components, possibly needing replacements and servicing (all of which is going to cost mucho dinero).

For the amount of performance gain spent on adding G-Force components to my transaxle, you could have a MUCH stronger box using standard off-the-shelf components from Richmond in my "big-dog" transaxle. Different spectrum of the same markets really. T56/T6060-based transaxle for street/light track use...Richmond/QC-based transaxle for full-track/high-power street use. BOTH using STOCK PRODUCTION PARTs, commonly available and serviceable, thus making them AFFORDABLE.

This is a business venture after-all. I want to offer these transaxles to builders at a decent price while still turning a profit. There will be no free upgrades, because ALL upgrades have a cost, and all labor has a cost. What I WILL offer is a great product at a great price point, with great service attached. When these transaxles come to market, I will have a full network of researched and referrable shops to service these boxes in the aftermarket, complete assembly manuals, parts lists for non-propietary pieces (gears, shafts, ring & pinion) and replacement components for all propietary pieces. Just like a full-fledged "big" manufacturer, with complete transparency for the consumer...which is something the "big" manufacturers WILL NOT do.

I haven’t researched the price in years but when I did the g-force upgrade was comparable in price to the Richmond 6 speed, and was stronger. Maybe that has changed over the years and it might be worth looking into. But I ultimately agree with your philosophy of using off the shelf parts to keep the cost reasonable.

You also might look into the t56 magnum, I guess it’s a t56 case but with 6060 internals, apparently it’s good for over 700lb-ft of torque here is a pic of the difference between the magnum/6060 and the standard t56 Terminator Tremecs T56 Six Speed Front View Photo

Again not sure if that will blow the price outside of what your target is but it’s interesting regardless…
 
If you click on 'Wyld''s ID & check out his other posts you will find another thread titled '' American Transaxles............. & cheapskates'', sort of explains lack of progress on his project...... no market, no product,...................
 
Here is what my ALL AMERICAN transaxle looks like..
To build one with off the shelf parts requires you, at some point, to make something custom.. and after a while you find it just as EZ to make anything you need...

What the Mind can conceive, you can achieve..

004105-R1-15-15.jpg

004105-R1-13-13.jpg

004105-R1-09-9.jpg

004105-R1-04-4.jpg

GetAttachment.jpg
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
WHY is there a lambo?
If you look closely,,,, you will see that the 850QC is in that car...
That car was built by some one who bought one of the transaxles..
It is a driver... I think it was a Bill Kester Kit...
 
Hello all! I have read the posts in this thread with great interest, as this is something i would like to take a stab at. I do have a question though, and please forgive me if it has already been answered. I have figured the ring gear carrier center to input shaft dimension to be 1.5", assuming a 1'' input shaft diameter, and using an 8.8 ford ring gear carrier.( 3.5 -1.5 hypoid offset- .500 input shaft radius) I don't have an 8.8 on hand to measure, but it seems like it would be larger than 3''. Have i gone wrong in my math, or is a special ring and pinion used for this? I suppose you could use a smaller input shaft, but it would have to be very small to gain an appreciable amount of clearance. Any thoughts?
 
Hello all! I have read the posts in this thread with great interest, as this is something i would like to take a stab at. I do have a question though, and please forgive me if it has already been answered. I have figured the ring gear carrier center to input shaft dimension to be 1.5", assuming a 1'' input shaft diameter, and using an 8.8 ford ring gear carrier.( 3.5 -1.5 hypoid offset- .500 input shaft radius) I don't have an 8.8 on hand to measure, but it seems like it would be larger than 3''. Have i gone wrong in my math, or is a special ring and pinion used for this? I suppose you could use a smaller input shaft, but it would have to be very small to gain an appreciable amount of clearance. Any thoughts?

You forgot to factor in the effective radius of the ring gear carrier at the point where the input shaft pass's under [ or over ] it...
 
Jac Mac: Thank you for your input. I re-read my earlier post and realized that what i was trying to ask was not very clear. The dimension you show in the drawing you just put up is the 1.5" dimension that i refer to. What i was trying to say is that i'm not sure the carrier itself (the part of it that holds the spider gears) will clear the input shaft. Isn't it bigger than 3"( 1.5" x 2)? I haven't got a carrier with me, so i can't measure to find out. I think i will head to the junkyard this weekend and just measure one and see...
 
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