When will they ever learn?

[Jim Craik]

David,

I have given this a lot of though and I come to the conclusion that this man probably was not mentally ill. What his attorney says is suspect, he said that after very little time with his client (you have no time with his client) plus its his job.

This was a very complicated, milti-facited TERRORIST attack, requiring much lead time, much equipement and precise exicution.

This complicated plan, designed to bring the most damage to those that he hated, the Prime Minister and the Children of liberals.

He needed to accuire the explosives, detonater, bomb timing device, a way to transport the bomb and a way to leave it without being caught.

Then he needed to get a police uniforn, several automatic weapons, find a way to bluff his way onto the island with his guns and he needed pull all this together in just a few hours. hardly a job for a mentally ill person!

I can think of two recent terrorist attacked that required similar extensive planning and timing, these were also put together be people bent on revenge at any cost.

The 9-11 terrorist attacks were also very complicated, milti-facited attacks, requireing much planning, much preporation, good timing and designed to bring maximum damage to those they hated.

David, the 9-11 attackers were not mentally ill, but they were strongly influenced by the hate of those they listend to.

Another similarly complicated, mulit-facited attack was the Oklahome City bombing. Here was another angery person willing to do anything to bring maximim damage to those he hated.

David, Mr McVay was not mentally ill either, just very angery. He was also strongly influence by the hate of those that he listend to.

*********

I understand why you hope this was a mentaly ill person, it makes everything easier, less blame to go around, but I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing another version of 9-11, no doubt a TERRORIST ATTACK!

 

[Keith]

Give it up David - there's no point.

They've spread this gobbledygook over several threads now like Marmite on hot toast.

They don't care what you believe.

I'm tired of it and will take a break...

 

[Doug S.]

Don't forget Ted Kacynski, the Unabomber.

He, too, "developed" a manifesto, admittedly only 50 pages long, but when the authorities searched his shack in the mountains they found 40,000 additional pages of rantings and bomb plans.

His defense attorneys wanted him to plead insanity so that they could avoid the death penalty....for which Kaczynski summarily dismissed them both. Kaczynski eventually managed a plea bargain that would in the end result in him being incarcerated for the rest of his life without possibility of parole. Most who followed the case believed he had made a good deal....that the defense attorneys would never have been able to prove "insanity" because of the malice and forethought with which he committed his crimes (his cowardly nature was manifested in a different manner, he hid behind the USPS to deliver his instruments of death and pain).

Within the field of education there is a concept called "manifest determination"...in essence, if it can be proven that a child has a psychological or learning disorder that can be directly attributed as a causal factor for the child's misbehavior, he can't be punished for the behavior (but that doesn't mean he can't be further restricted in his placement, even if he is absolved of responsibility).

Complicated plans of the nature developed and pulled off by Breivik tend to convince psychologists, juries and judges that a person can process in a rational manner.....unlike clinically "mentally ill" individuals.

Cheers from Doug!!

 

[Jeff Young]

Goobledygook?

The point is pretty simple.

1. An Arabic man of Muslim faith kills 50 people who he considers "infidels" invading his country. That to you is terrorism.

2. A Christian man who is isolationist and "right wing" kills 50 people at an opposition party summer camp because he thinks they are contributing to the "colonization" of his country. That is not terrorism?

You'll have to explain that.

It's unfortunate that what's really going on here is so transparent. Someone who holds beliefs similar to yours, or at least an extension of them, does something like this and instead of examining those beliefs, you want to call him a psychopath. Probably some truth that he is, and that is part of what separates him from the rest of us. But the beliefs, and their contribution to this, remain. And they are a problem.

Give it up David - there's no point.

They've spread this gobbledygook over several threads now like Marmite on hot toast.

They don't care what you believe.

I'm tired of it and will take a break...

 

[David Morton]

I give up.
Again.

 

[Jim Craik]

David, did you read why I do not think he was mentally ill?

I read what you said and wrote a reply.

 

[Jeff Young]

No, you don't get off that easy.

Why are the radical Muslims terrorists and this guy is a psychopath?

(By the way I'd submit they are both terrorist psychopaths with dangerous belief systems, just that one has a better taste in clothes than the other).

I give up.
Again.

 

[Jack Houpe]

OK, let me try.

This attack was carried out by a deranged individual. That is it, nothing more.

I, who have used explosives and own guns, have not in my entire life had a wish to hurt another human being in any manner. I do vote Republican as well.

Since I fit entirely into your criteria, I guess for me it is just a matter of time.

Sir, I am forced to the conclusion that you are nothing more than a troll on these boards using your own inflamatlry rhetoric to cause confrontation and bolster your own self worth by doing so.

I agree! Why don't you go to some political related forum and spread your cheer, I for one am sick of looking at your name appear in on any thread. You act as your a forum ambassador yet all you do is spread your hate toward anyone that disagrees with you. Your following is limited so I would think you would get the idea by now. After all this is a GT40s forum that just so happens to have a section for people like you to to rant your crap.

 

[Jeff Young]

The irony in this post is epic.

I agree! Why don't you go to some political related forum and spread your cheer, I for one am sick of looking at your name appear in on any thread. You act as your a forum ambassador yet all you do is spread your hate toward anyone that disagrees with you. Your following is limited so I would think you would get the idea by now. After all this is a GT40s forum that just so happens to have a section for people like you to to rant your crap.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The right wing hate filled spinning of the truth has taken still more innocent lives, when will they ever lean?

The scumbags incite hate and violence, provoke attacks and they do it for power and money!

It appears the the Oslo terrorist attack was committed by a gun and bomb toting conservative right wing Muslim hater.

He felt that by committing these horrible crimes, the notoriety gained would allow him to broadcast his fear and hate filled message to a large audience. Kind of like Fox.

Now that asshole spokesman for the conservative movement Mr Beck is comparing the innocent children in Norway to the Hitler youth.

When will they ever learn?

Jim, I'm sure we can find left leaning mass murderers, shall we lump you in with these people? That was stupid!
How about Lenin, Marx, and Mao Tse Tung there are some lefties for you and they killed millions.

 

[Jeff Young]

Al's back!

Fair point though.

Here's the thing. Why are you taking this personally? Or saying we are lumping "you" in with this killer? We aren't, or at least I'm not. I am just saying that some of the ideas I see espoused here by the right are the very same ones this guy holds.

Plenty of left wing killers out there (although historically inaccurate to say Marx himself was a killer.....). But I don't mind when you point that out and I certainly don't identify with that portion of the belief system that caused that type of behavior.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al's back!

Fair point though.

Here's the thing. Why are you taking this personally? Or saying we are lumping "you" in with this killer? We aren't, or at least I'm not. I am just saying that some of the ideas I see espoused here by the right are the very same ones this guy holds.

Plenty of left wing killers out there (although historically inaccurate to say Marx himself was a killer.....). But I don't mind when you point that out and I certainly don't identify with that portion of the belief system that caused that type of behavior.

Jeff, I wasn't taking it personally, Jim makes a lot of blanket statements.

 

[Jeff Young]

Understood, and welcome back.

Jeff, I wasn't taking it personally, Jim makes a lot of blanket statements.

 

[Graham]

The guy is a terrorist, full stop (or "period" to our American chums).

He has attempted to change the make up of a set of ideals by his actions, and this defines him as a terrorist. The fact that he's white is irrelevant to me.

The crap about him being a loony is just fluff that any defence lawyer would use. How is that any different to a radical Islamist using his belief to the same ends?

Being a whack job doens't preclude you from being a terrorist. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

Now, carry on boys, and fight nicely...

 

[Jeff Young]

Keyrect (that's Southern US speak for our more cultured brothers of the Island Empire).

Being a whack job doens't preclude you from being a terrorist. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Now, carry on boys, and fight nicely...

 

[Jim Craik]

Al, Jack, Davit, Keith.

I have asked many times and I'll continue to ask......

What have I said in this discussion that is not true. Tell me please I would love to discuss it.

Tell me something I said in this discussion that was "stupid", please I would love discuss it.

Graham,

It's good to hear from you. The boys are a little restless today.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Never mind.

 

[Nick]

Jim, I'm sure we can find left leaning mass murderers, shall we lump you in with these people? That was stupid!
How about Lenin, Marx, and Mao Tse Tung there are some lefties for you and they killed millions.

Goobledygook?

The point is pretty simple.
1. An Arabic man of Muslim faith kills 50 people who he considers "infidels" invading his country. That to you is terrorism.
2. A Christian man who is isolationist and "right wing" kills 50 people at an opposition party summer camp because he thinks they are contributing to the "colonization" of his country. That is not terrorism?
.

I really don't want to stir things up anymore but to me both are very valid points.

However, I get the feeling that because of the demographic (not sure if that is the right word) nature of the forum the messengers / supporters of those points will be treated differently.

There again 2000 years ago a man walked this earth that had a different view on issues than the majority, and they crucified him for it. So maybe just throwing out personal insults is an improvement

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Look, you guys: I look at mentally ill people all the time as part of my job, and these folks aren't mentally ill. They are just bad people- my personal take on this is that they start off wanting to kill people and just find a situation that they think justifies it. But they aren't mentally ill. I see mentally ill people all the time, and yes, they do attack people, and from time to time someone mentally ill does kill people, but I don't think the Oslo terrorist was mentally ill. I don't think McVeigh was either. Or Kaszynski.

You are all on the wrong track with trying to assign political beliefs to these folks. Ok, they write manifestos etc etc, but look: the desire to kill a lot of people is independent of political beliefs or political position. It is a separate point of view- the idea that innocent lives are expendable in the pursuit of political power and dominance. THAT is the idea that is so repulsive to all of us.

Here is another way to put it: we have people of quite different political stripes on this forum. As far as I can tell, no one here believes that it is in any way okay to go out and murder people to further political ends or amass political power. So- in that sense- we are all more similar than we are different. There isn't anything about left-wing political beliefs that necessarily espouses violence any more than there is something about right-wing political beliefs that espouses violence. What you all need to understand is that with terrorists the violence comes FIRST- the desire to kill other people is the beginning of their political thoughts, not the end.

That is why terrorism is a separate stream of political thought. It isn't right or left wing, no matter what rhetoric it borrows. It originates with the desire to commit murder. That is why the real description of these folks is criminals. People who listen to the half-baked nonsense coming out of these folks' mouths are missing the point. People who plot to kill others are criminals. If you want to have a debate about what to do with them, fine, but.....

...don't insult political speech by giving these folks more credit than they deserve.

Thanks for listening.

 

[craig]

Look, you guys: I look at mentally ill people all the time as part of my job, and these folks aren't mentally ill. They are just bad people- my personal take on this is that they start off wanting to kill people and just find a situation that they think justifies it. But they aren't mentally ill. I see mentally ill people all the time, and yes, they do attack people, and from time to time someone mentally ill does kill people, but I don't think the Oslo terrorist was mentally ill. I don't think McVeigh was either. Or Kaszynski.

You are all on the wrong track with trying to assign political beliefs to these folks. Ok, they write manifestos etc etc, but look: the desire to kill a lot of people is independent of political beliefs or political position. It is a separate point of view- the idea that innocent lives are expendable in the pursuit of political power and dominance. THAT is the idea that is so repulsive to all of us.

Here is another way to put it: we have people of quite different political stripes on this forum. As far as I can tell, no one here believes that it is in any way okay to go out and murder people to further political ends or amass political power. So- in that sense- we are all more similar than we are different. There isn't anything about left-wing political beliefs that necessarily espouses violence any more than there is something about right-wing political beliefs that espouses violence. What you all need to understand is that with terrorists the violence comes FIRST- the desire to kill other people is the beginning of their political thoughts, not the end.

That is why terrorism is a separate stream of political thought. It isn't right or left wing, no matter what rhetoric it borrows. It originates with the desire to commit murder. That is why the real description of these folks is criminals. People who listen to the half-baked nonsense coming out of these folks' mouths are missing the point. People who plot to kill others are criminals. If you want to have a debate about what to do with them, fine, but.....

...don't insult political speech by giving these folks more credit than they deserve.

Thanks for listening.

Well said Jim....and I would have a blanket punishment for all these types of murdering rotten filthy fu***ng criminals......a swift death