In your face, comrade!

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
So, you say that "the Governemt is forcing Churchs to supply birth control".

Really, that's terrible, do they make those Preists carry birth control pills in their robes? Hand them out to everyone?

Oh wait, it seems that just like every other medication. When you see your doctor, he gives you a prescription and you then go to a pharmacy.

That sounds better doesn't it?

Rather than making everything a conspiracy, it appears that he is doing what he thinks is best for the country. What a concept.

Instead of defending billionaires and whacky religious leaders, he is working for the majority of the people. The people can tell and you will loose.

So keep it up, you are the best thing that ever happened to the liberal cause. Please write letters to the editor, call talk shows, you need to tell the people about all this!
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Like I said, please keep it up!

This site obviously has a slant, but if these numbers are clost to correct, and I think they are.......

*************
Wed Feb 15, 2012 at 09:00 AM PST
Poll: Even church-going Catholics reject Republican jihad against birth control

by Jed LewisonFollow for Daily Kos

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Via Greg Sargent, behold the disaster that is the Republican Party's position against birth control:
Do you support or oppose a recent federal requirement that private health insurance plans cover the full cost of birth control for their female patients? Support: 66
Oppose: 26
So two out of three Americans reject the GOP's anti-contraception position—and just one in four want to stay in the 13th century. But the story gets even worse for the GOP when you look at the cross-tabs, some of which were posted by Greg:
Republicans: 50-44 (support-oppose)
Independents: 64-26
Moderates: 68-22
Women: 72-20
Catholics: 67-25
Church-going Catholics: 48-43
With numbers like those, Republicans aren't just on the wrong side ... they're severely on the wrong side.
 
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The Daily Kos, The Fat Buddha, yeah you frequent all the middle of the road material.

That, and your notorious love of manipulated data, yeah, you keep on going too.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
I googled birth control polls, that one came up first, but there are lots of them, all just about the same.

I challenge you to show any data I have "Manipulated", I challenge you to show anything I said that was not true.



You on the other hand post untruths almost daly. These are just a few.

You said liberal, activist judges were over ruling the Constitution, we asked for an example, you had none.

You said Obamas administration was full of communists, we asked for proof, you had none.

You said the ABC, CBS and NBC lie and show doctored charts all the time. We asked for proof, you had none.

You said that the founding fathers ended slavery, even though everyone knows that many were slave holders.

You said that Iraq was responsible for 9-11, and that's why we invaded Iraq, both President Bush and Dick Cheaney said you are wrong.


For more information check out Mr Fechter's bazaar "Taking History back from from Liberal lies" thread.
 
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Pat

Supporter
This site obviously has a slant, but if these numbers are clost to correct, and I think they So two out of three Americans reject the GOP's anti-contraception position[/INDENT]With numbers like those, Republicans aren't just on the wrong side ... they're severely on the wrong side.

Jim, the GOP has no "anti-contraception position" that's nonsense and you know it. As always, liberals make arguments on any issue about sex. IT'S ABOUT MORALS and the value of a human life. It's about boundaries and individual RESPONSIBILITY not rights. The Church does not intrude on Ms Fluke's priority of sexual pleasures (or yours for that matter)but don't expect her to be patted on the back for them. In fact the Church has quite a firm position that before marriage people shouldn't have sex. As a birth control device it is not only free but 100% effective!
You're trying to distract the administration's war on religion and freedom of conscience. The GOP has a freedom of religion position, it's called the conscience clause allowing people of faith not be forced to go against their moral beliefs. The government, in its attempt to install secularism as the national religion, is forbidding that. The White House has even overturned regulations that protect doctors and hospitals from being forced to perform or refer abortions.
So last week a conscience clause bill specifically introduced to address conscience protections was defeated by Democrats in the senate. Subsequently according to Cardinal Dolan, the White House also told representatives of Catholic Bishops that they "didn't understand" Catholic teachings and need to change Church views on abortion/sterilization/contraception. So the White House is telling Catholic leaders what their beliefs should be. Seems like Henry VIII did something similiar regarding the church's views on divorce.

Some forms of non-hormonal contraception are even approved by the church, ironically even one developed not too long ago at Georgestown University. And yes Jim, contraception is popular with some Catholics so is sex outside of marriage.
Many Cathlolics use the pill and sadly have abortions. The Church's teaching, like the Ten Commandments aren't always popular. In many circles the Church's views on chastity and divorce are also very unpopular. Should the Church change their teaching on those as well?

Or, should we prosecute anyone that refuses to follow their conscience?
 
The government gives a fair amount of money to this group and others. Birth Control Methods - Birth Control Options
Given that one can get free or very inexpensive birth control at PP why is the government pushing for the Church to pay for birth control? Why doesn't Ms Fluke go to PP? I'm sure there's one near Georgetown. When Ms Fluke's reason for doing this get's traced back to it's origin, it's not going to be pretty.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
The government, in its attempt to install secularism as the national religion, is forbidding that. The White House has even overturned regulations that protect doctors and hospitals from being forced to perform or refer abortions.

Many Cathlolics use the pill and sadly have abortions. The Church's teaching, like the Ten Commandments aren't always popular. In many circles the Church's views on chastity and divorce are also very unpopular. Should the Church change their teaching on those as well?

Veek, you state that the government is attempting "...to install secularism as the national religion" as if it were the undisputed truth. I haven't seen any evidence of that, rather I see that the current administration is attempting to maintain our separation of church and state. The birth control issue with the Catholic Church is exactly that....if our government were to allow a specific exemption to a religious organization, that would in my view be paramount to endorsing the views of that particular religion. We all know that is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.

Conscientious objectors have been common in our history...based on their MORAL beliefs, they protested those governmental actions in which they didn't believe through various methods. One of my friends in the 1970's was against the war in Viet Nam, so he calculated the portion of our country's annual budget that supported that war, reduced his IRS "payment" by that amount, and included a copy of his check for that amount to a charitable organization. He was pursued for years, I have no idea if he prevailed, but having had my issues with the IRS I cannot believe that he was successful. The point is that just stating a moral objection does not relieve American citizens from supporting the governmental functions of our country. I can only imagine the mayhem that would ensue if our government were to allow MORALS to run our country (hard to imagine most of the people we elect have very high morals, anyway, given the strange situations in which many of them find themselves).

As for the Catholic Church, in my humble view it is a dinosaur. The beliefs and the tenants of Catholocism have little to do with religion and more to do with controlling behaviors of those who attend the mass. They hold communion over the heads of the "disbelievers", as if it means that by being denied communion b/c of a divorce or other transgression they are doomed to some unspeakable terror for eternity if they don't just fall in line like the rest of the sheep and comply. So, to answer your question, the Catholic Church SHOULD change their teachings....why should we expect a religion that seems to be mired down in the dark days of midieval Europe to be relevent in today's U.S. society?

Cheers!

Doug
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Or should we prosecute anyone who refuses to follow their conscience
Posted by Veek

As I have said, anyone is free to follow their conscious........

As long as its legal and as long as their conscious does not effect others rights.

A good example of this: Christian Science parents are not allowed to withhold critical medical treatment from their childeren.

As I have said before, if you do not believe in birth controll, do not use it.

But when you try and force your conscience onto others, then I have a real problem

Should a Muslum church be allowed to force their gardener practice Shirea law at home?


If an employer provides health care to employees, then provide health care. What goes on between the employee and their doctor is ABSOLUTLY NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!!

You have heard of Doctor client confidentiality?
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
If an employer provides health care to employees, thaen what goes on between the employee and their doctor is ABSOLUTLY NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!!

You've hit the nail on the head, Jim.

The Catholic Church realizes their influence on adherent's behaviors is diminishing in the modern age, yet they continue to insist on compliance with their outdated requirements. If the government does NOT allow them to eliminate contraception from their church's group insurance plan, they will have lost what little control they still retain in that issue.

Our government has no obligation to make the practices of the Catholic Church any easier...in my opinion, that would be endorsing the beliefs of that religion, which IS prohibited by our constitution!

Cheers!

Doug
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Veek,

Just a few quick questions:

Do you think that Christian Science parents should be allowd to withhold critical health care from their children?

Do you think a US Muslum Church should be able to force their gardener to practice Shirea law at home.

Do you think that a church should be allowed to ignore Doctor Patiant confidentiality?
 

Pat

Supporter
Veek, you state that the government is attempting "...to install secularism as the national religion" as if it were the undisputed truth. I haven't seen any evidence of that, rather I see that the current administration is attempting to maintain our separation of church and state.
Cheers!
Doug

Doug, who is imposing what on whom??? The administration imposed an unfunded abortion/sterilization mandate on Catholic and other faith based institutions. Is directing Catholic bishops to change church teaching "attempting to maintain our separation of church and state"?
The Catholic Church is not forcing anybody to do anything.

From Michael Gerson of the Washington Post:

..."Obama chose to substantially burden a religious belief, by the most intrusive means, for a less-than-compelling state purpose — a marginal increase in access to contraceptives that are easily available elsewhere. The religious exemption granted by Obamacare is narrower than anywhere else in federal law — essentially covering the delivery of homilies and the distribution of sacraments. Serving the poor and healing the sick are regarded as secular pursuits — a determination that would have surprised Christianity’s founder.

Both radicalism and maliciousness are at work in Obama’s decision — an edict delivered with a sneer. It is the most transparently anti-Catholic maneuver by the federal government since the Blaine Amendment was proposed in 1875 — a measure designed to diminish public tolerance of Romanism, then regarded as foreign, authoritarian and illiberal. Modern liberalism has progressed to the point of adopting the attitudes and methods of 19th-century Republican nativists.

The implications of Obama’s choice will take years to sort through. The immediate impact can be measured on three men:

Consider Catholicism’s most prominent academic leader, the Rev. John Jenkins, president of Notre Dame. Jenkins took a serious risk in sponsoring Obama’s 2009 honorary degree and commencement address — which promised a “sensible” approach to the conscience clause. Jenkins now complains, “This is not the kind of ‘sensible’ approach the president had in mind when he spoke here.” Obama has made Jenkins — and other progressive Catholic allies — look easily duped.

Consider Catholicism’s highest-ranking elected official, Vice President Biden. Biden had encouraged engagement with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops on conscience rights. Now he will be remembered as the Catholic cover for the violation of Catholic conscience. Betrayal is always an inside job.

Consider Catholicism’s most prominent clerical leader, Cardinal-designate Timothy Dolan, head of the Conference of Catholic Bishops. Dolan had pursued a policy of engagement with the administration. In November, he met face to face with Obama, who was earnestly reassuring on conscience protections. On Jan. 20, during a less-cordial phone conversation, Obama informed Dolan that no substantial concession had been made. How can Dolan make the argument for engagement now?

The implications of Obama’s power grab go further than contraception and will provoke opposition beyond Catholicism. Christian colleges and universities of various denominations will resist providing insurance coverage for abortifacients. And the astounding ambition of this federal precedent will soon be apparent to every religious institution. Obama is claiming the executive authority to determine which missions of believers are religious and which are not — and then to aggressively regulate institutions the government declares to be secular. It is a view of religious liberty so narrow and privatized that it barely covers the space between a believer’s ears.

Obama’s decision also reflects a certain view of liberalism. Classical liberalism was concerned with the freedom to hold and practice beliefs at odds with a public consensus. Modern liberalism uses the power of the state to impose liberal values on institutions it regards as backward. It is the difference between pluralism and anti-*clericalism.

The administration’s ultimate motivation is uncertain. Has it adopted a radical secularism out of conviction, or is it cynically appealing to radical secularists? In either case, the war on religion is now formally declared."
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Doug, who is imposing what on whom???

The POTUS has no need, nor no power, to impose a separation of church and state, our founding fathers did that with the first ammendment to our Constitution.

The POTUS is simply attempting to defend the U.S. against all attacks, both foreign and domestic, as he pledged to do when inaugurated.

Veek, I recognize your devout faith...nothing wrong with that. To that end I suggest that you can forward the efforts of the Catholic Church by indoctrinating your children with those beliefs....although there may be something wrong with that if you believe that religious belief (even if that decision is to NOT believe at all) is a personal choice and not something that should be forced.

I have some experience with the Catholic religion....my father was Catholic (or, at least he was before the first of his two divorces), my paternal grandparents were devout Catholics (my grandmother never, to my knowledge, missed the 6:30 mass at her church), I was even married for 17 years to a delightful lady who was Catholic. While I believe there is nothing wrong with religion in general, I have serious issues with the manner in which the Catholic Church indoctrinates its adherents.

I have no interest in any government for which I voted (or, conversely, for any U.S. government for which I did NOT vote) doing anything to help the Catholic Church, or any church for that matter.

Government and church are suppose to be separate, plain and simple....government should neither hinder nor facilitate the efforts of any religious organization. The Catholic Church should not be granted a waiver from providing its insured the birth control requirements of "Obamacare"...but, I grant you that the Catholic Church can and should use whatever techniques it can legally support in its efforts to survive (I just wonder how much longer the Catholic Church can survive given the rapidly accellerating rate at which our U. S. society, as well as other societies around the world, are changing).

Cheers!

Doug
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Veek,

Just a few quick questions:

Do you think that Christian Science parents should be allowd to withhold critical health care from their children?

Do you think a US Muslum Church should be able to force their gardener to practice Shirea law at home.

Do you think that a church should be allowed to ignore Doctor Patiant confidentiality?

Veek,

I can tell from your posts that you are very passionate about this subject. I can see that and I admire it. I know that I am often way too blunt, with little tact. But I do have the utmost respect for your thoughts.

But I also know that sometimes passion about one thing can blind us to the big picture. Giving one group an exemption from the law, for their Religious beliefs would in the end lead to the things I mentioned above.

And many many more. Can you say Rastafarian?

The Presidents job is to do the best for the "People", all the people. In this instance, I'm sure it seems to you as a simple Catholic/birth controll issue, but he has to look at the big picture and weigh effects.

As I said before, living in a a modern society requires some compromises.
 
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Veek,

Just a few quick questions:

Do you think that Christian Science parents should be allowd to withhold critical health care from their children?

Do you think a US Muslum Church should be able to force their gardener to practice Shirea law at home.

Do you think that a church should be allowed to ignore Doctor Patiant confidentiality?

Jim, are you contemplating the start of a quiz show?
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Tom,

Not a bad idea, I could call it "Are you smarter than a fifth grader?" :)

But seriously, I much prefer asking and being asked questions, its much better than just making statements or just copying something found online. It shows we are paying attention.

I like to see if they have thought through the ramifications of what they have posted.

But Tom, unfortunatly, outside of an ocasional answer from you (thanks by the way), I rarely receive an answer. Although a lack of reply often is an answer in itself.
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Tom,

I have been giving your question some more though. Often these questions are retorical.

Earlier in this thread someone posted that Mr Breitbart, Mr limbaugh and Mr Hanity were "Heros, Patriots and Great Americans" as they were brave enough to cover subjects in a way that most media would not.

I then asked if they thought Oberman, Maddow and such were also Heros, Patriots and Great Americans because they too covered subjects in a way that most media would not. I asked over and over and got no answer.

Finally after many, many repeats of the question you finally answered. Thanks, you are the brave/honest one.

These most recent questions to Veek are very similar.

He can not understand that an exception to the law could not be made for the Catholic Church. He has said that this is an "attack on the Catholic Church" and a "war on Religion"

I'm sure he must know that if you make an exemption for the Catholics, all the other Churches would ask for exemtions and expect to have them granted.

After all the Catholic Church sould not receive special treatment, should it?

I am really interested to hear his answer. I see that he has since posted on other threads so I'm fairly sure he has seen the questions.

Perhaps he is just too busy.
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Veek,

Just a few quick questions:

Do you think that Christian Science parents should be allowd to withhold critical health care from their children?

Do you think a US Muslum Church should be able to force their gardener to practice Shirea law at home.

Do you think that a church should be allowed to ignore Doctor Patiant confidentiality?

*****************************

Veek,

You may have missed these posts. I was talking to Tom and you as well.

Veek can not understand why an exception to the law could not be made for the Catholic Church. He has said that this is an "attack on the Catholic Church" and a "war on Religion".

Actually, this is much more of a war on the Constitution and an attack on the Founding Fathers.

I'm sure you must know that if you make an exemption for the Catholics, all the other Churches would ask for exemtions and expect to have them granted. (see above)

After all the Catholic Church should not receive special treatment, should it?

I am really interested to hear his answer. I see that he has since posted on other threads so I'm fairly sure he has seen the questions.

Perhaps he is just too busy.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
 
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Jim, As I said before, contraception can be found for little or no money at a number of organizations, PP being the most widely spread and already funded by tax dollars. Knowing this why is the government asking the church and it's affiliates to provide for contraception with health insurance? It would seem to me that the government is trying to make the church bow to it's will. There is no need for the church to provide something it doesn't believe in, it's already there.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Tom the Church would not provide contriception. The Church would provide Health Care.

Just as with any person in this country, you see your doctor, and if warrented, the Doctor would perscribe anti-biotics, blood pressure medicine or perhaps birth control pills.

It does not matter, but what goes on between a patiant and their Doctor IS ABSOLUTLY NONE OF THE CHURCHES BUSINESS!!!!!!

Tom, do you think that the Church of Scientology should be able to forbid a doctor from perscribing pain pills to their gardener?

Should the Church of Scientology be allowed to prevent dentists from using novacane?

Do you think that Christion Science leaders should be able to forbid doctors from treating the childern of employees for serious illness?

Tom I say these things, because that is what you will get if you allow this war on the Constitution to succeed!

*******************

This may seem to you as a simple Cathlic, birth controll issue, but it is not! This is a funamental issue with huge ramifications, thank God President Obams understands this.
 
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