What Transaxle in your GT40?

What Transaxle is in your replica?

  • ZF / RBT

    Votes: 94 23.8%

  • Audi 016 ad similar, 5 speeds

    Votes: 60 15.2%

  • Audi 01E and similar, 6 speeds

    Votes: 34 8.6%

  • Porsche G50 and similar, 5 speeds

    Votes: 52 13.2%

  • Porsche 930, 4 speed

    Votes: 18 4.6%

  • Porsche 915 and similar

    Votes: 5 1.3%

  • Renault UN1 or 369

    Votes: 78 19.7%

  • ZFQ from Quaife

    Votes: 21 5.3%

  • Ricardo

    Votes: 10 2.5%

  • Other not listed

    Votes: 23 5.8%
  • Total voters
    395
D

Darrin

I understand they have to support more HP, but how is it that you can build an engine which will make 1000HP with all of those moving parts for less than the cost of the transaxle? It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
A

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
darrinps said:
I understand they have to support more HP, but how is it that you can build an engine which will make 1000HP with all of those moving parts for less than the cost of the transaxle? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...


Let's check the assumptions behind the question:

Can you in fact build a reliable 1000 HP engine for less than $26,000?
Does a transaxle have fewer moving parts than a pushrod V-8?
 
L

Leon

Here's a little bit of information that might surprise some, the gear casings for Albins are made in NZ, in fact the people who I have casting my parts make them here in New Plymouth.
Also I didn't see where they say they can do 1000hp, V8 super cars are around 700hp and 1500kgs give or take. If you add all the other "Optional" bits its about 30k.
I actually had a "Diff Section" to look at a while back and asked if I could buy just the case but was given a pretty firm "No way" in fact they said I might copy it and become their competition. Like I'm a threat to them NOT!! Cheers Leon.
 
D

Darrin

1000hp is not that hard for under 26000.

Aluminator good to 1000HP reliably for about $8K

Paxton Supercharger with intercooler for under $6K

Ported cylinder heads for under $3K

PCM, pulleys, misc for say $5K (being generous)

Assembly (varies on the skill of the person purchasing but let's say it's mostly shopped out) for another $3K

That's $25K, and yes it will have more moving parts, be reliable, and make 1000HP

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRh9YDrWI8k]1,032 RWHP Paxton Supercharged Coyote 5.0L - YouTube[/ame]

Actually, that's over 1000 REAR WHEEL horsepower, so we can back that off boost a bit and increase reliability to get us down to 1000HP at the flywheel.
 
A

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
darrinps said:
1000hp is not that hard for under 26000.

Aluminator good to 1000HP reliably for about $8K

Paxton Supercharger with intercooler for under $6K

Ported cylinder heads for under $3K

PCM, pulleys, misc for say $5K (being generous)

Assembly (varies on the skill of the person purchasing but let's say it's mostly shopped out) for another $3K

That's $25K, and yes it will have more moving parts, be reliable, and make 1000HP

1,032 RWHP Paxton Supercharged Coyote 5.0L - YouTube

Actually, that's over 1000 REAR WHEEL horsepower, so we can back that off boost a bit and increase reliability to get us down to 1000HP at the flywheel.
Click to expand...

OK so what would the bill be from a "going concern" company like Albins that will deliver that ready to go, with a warranty, spare parts supply, etc?

IAE if that's where we're headed I can build a two-moving part motor for about $5 that will put out 1000 hp. For a few microseconds. It's electric.

I think a better question is why people continue to bitch about the cost of low-production transaxles as if that's easy and building a V-8 is hard. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
 
D

Darrin

I forgot, no one else is entitled to an opinion. It's only yours that matters. I've seen thread after thread where you do this sort of thing. Why I even bothered showing you how it was possible is, in retrospect, what doesn't make sense to me. Sorry I bothered.

awatkins said:
OK so what would the bill be from a "going concern" company like Albins that will deliver that ready to go, with a warranty, spare parts supply, etc?

IAE if that's where we're headed I can build a two-moving part motor for about $5 that will put out 1000 hp. For a few microseconds. It's electric.

I think a better question is why people continue to bitch about the cost of low-production transaxles as if that's easy and building a V-8 is hard. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...
 
A

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
darrinps said:
I forgot, no one else is entitled to an opinion..
Click to expand...

Disagreeing is not the same as saying you are not entitled to an opinion. I did nothing to suggest you are not entitled to have or express your opinion. I just don't happen to buy your reasoning. You asked a (rhetorical) question, I answered it. Maybe you'd be happier on a "forum" with no reply function. Or you can block my posts. Please. This kind of response is just litter.

fo·rum
ˈfôrəm/
noun

noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora1.

a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
​

Now, back to the original question:

When you build a 1000 HP V-8 as you describe, you are basically assembling a bunch of mass-produced parts. There is little if any R&D or machining cost or anything even resembling manufacturing.

When Albins, or Quaife, etc., designs and produces a transaxle, with the exception of a few inexpensive parts like ball bearings, fasteners, clips, etc, each and every part is designed from scratch and then individually fabricated by that vendor, including casting case parts and possibly forging fasteners and shaft blanks. You ever tried to make a helical gear?

The parts count, weight, volume, etc. are roughly comparable to a V-8 but there is no comparison at all in the R&D, testing, machining, heat-treating, marketing, post-sale support and spares stocking, all of which have to be amortized over (if they're lucky) a hundred or so transaxles.

As you said, your engine builder spends a few tens of hours fitting, assembling, running, your engine and then he's done. BFD.
 
Last edited:
G

Robert May Eng.

Reasonably reliable 1000hp engines are not uncommon anymore, with the mass production of tuning parts nearly impossible HP figures of yesteryear are virtually off the shelf these days. Wanni in this post gave a good account of the work and expense that goes into a hd transaxle http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...rice-transaxles-why-transaxles-expensive.html
The Veyron gearbox development swallowed millions and thats with all the facilities of a major car manufacturer behind them.

Bob
 
flatchat

flatchat(Chris)

Supporter
I now "work" for "the" Australian agent for tremec gearboxes ( a winding down plan?)
"Awanna gearbox for me fast street car"
"Great , what is the output of the engine??" (as a duty of care response):stunned:
" Sgot 504 ci twin turbo 'ena super charger and only runs on E85 pump gas :worried: and dynoed at 1800 whatever HP
WOW! that is impressive -- eeerm well, we only have this little box thats freshly rebuilt out of a Cat D9 dozer -- (so, that should consume most of that outrageous HP just to turn the cogs let alone the sticky oil thats in it) aaand its Cheap!! (which is really what they want to hear) we also guarantee it not to break:thumbsup:
Just some of the conversations we deal with on a daily basis :laugh:
 
J

Jac Mac

Interesting comment from Chris above re the tremec agency, they must be really trying to sell stuff, had a customer who bought one direct from the USA recently who was offered two to sell on commission & an agency for Southern end of NZ, s'pose they thought shipping three wouldnt be much more than one at the time, never went with the deal!
Any potential transaxle builder who happened to read some of the threads on these forums & do some research into the past posts to try & form an idea of the needs of his potential market would probably go away looking for an easier way to make money...:)
 
D

Darrin

I figure I should let this go lest I get lectured again on what a forum is but when we can build transmissions that are capable of handling 700lbs of torque for about $2,900, one could reasonably postulate there would be a way to build a transaxle for less than the one in question that would do the same. I'm not saying it should be the same price, or even double, not even triple, just saying that nearly 10 times the amount seems to be a bit much.

Now, is the complexity of building a transaxle really 10 times that of a transmission? I wonder. Perhaps it is the size of the market holding it back or perhaps it's just the audience that transmissions get sold to won't support high dollars and those for transaxles will (elasticity of demand if you would).

Whatever the case, I don't need one that expensive and I have found what, to me, is a very good buy in one I have a lot of faith in and the cost was reasonable. Perhaps if I were relying on it to win races every week I wouldn't mind paying ultra premium dollars for one with ultra reliability.
 
J

Jac Mac

darrinps said:
I figure I should let this go lest I get lectured again on what a forum is but when we can build transmissions that are capable of handling 700lbs of torque for about $2,900, one could reasonably postulate there would be a way to build a transaxle for less than the one in question that would do the same. I'm not saying it should be the same price, or even double, not even triple, just saying that nearly 10 times the amount seems to be a bit much.

Now, is the complexity of building a transaxle really 10 times that of a transmission? I wonder. Perhaps it is the size of the market holding it back or perhaps it's just the audience that transmissions get sold to won't support high dollars and those for transaxles will (elasticity of demand if you would).

Whatever the case, I don't need one that expensive and I have found what, to me, is a very good buy in one I have a lot of faith in and the cost was reasonable. Perhaps if I were relying on it to win races every week I wouldn't mind paying ultra premium dollars for one with ultra reliability.
Click to expand...

And that is the roadblock that anyone faces when thinking about building a transaxle, there is no one size fits all solution, even the 'jerico' version of the T44 is a far cry from the original internally ( I saw pics of it on display from Road America ) most threads in relation to it end with a comment from the usual culprits about the ~$25000.00 price tag, Chris Melia once told me of what his original conception & intention for the ZFQ was, but the customers who mounted it behind monster engine combos exceeded that intent, when you read of the original cars and how some drivers who had a degree in mechanical sympathy could make stuff last while others could reduce anything to a pile of smoking debris in a short period of time nothing has really changed has it!
 
Last edited:
G

Robert May Eng.

darrinps said:
I figure I should let this go lest I get lectured again on what a forum is but when we can build transmissions that are capable of handling 700lbs of torque for about $2,900, one could reasonably postulate there would be a way to build a transaxle for less than the one in question that would do the same. I'm not saying it should be the same price, or even double, not even triple, just saying that nearly 10 times the amount seems to be a bit much.

Now, is the complexity of building a transaxle really 10 times that of a transmission? I wonder. Perhaps it is the size of the market holding it back or perhaps it's just the audience that transmissions get sold to won't support high dollars and those for transaxles will (elasticity of demand if you would).

Whatever the case, I don't need one that expensive and I have found what, to me, is a very good buy in one I have a lot of faith in and the cost was reasonable. Perhaps if I were relying on it to win races every week I wouldn't mind paying ultra premium dollars for one with ultra reliability.
Click to expand...

Its possible to drive down the costs of a transaxle but it can only come with massive investment and large production numbers. Neither are possible or feasible when only supplying to the replica industry. Everyone would want something different ie gear ratios, bellhousings and final drive which makes each trans a one off ( not cheap).

Bob
 
Howard Jones

Howard Jones

Supporter
What always gets me about these HP verses transaxle threads is there is NEVER a mention about tires and grip. Street tires (I really don't care which ones) can put down, maybe up to 450Hp at the wheels under 80mph at full power.

I can spin the hides off 315s with 290hp at the wheels. I know all about everybody likes what they like, but really what would you DO with a 18 inch D@#% besides play with it yourself.

IMHO A 1000Hp GT40 is a complete waste of a really cool car. But then that's just me.

As far as reliability goes, two our three dyno pulls or a couple of runs down the freeway isn't MY idea of reliable. If you can't run the gearbox for several years without it ending up all over the track then its either under rated or it's being abused. The G50 line is very good at 400hp and will last a very long time if treated correctly. I wouldn't bet on one lasting more than a few hours with 1000hp put through it on slicks. Even if it was shown some mechanical sympathy.

I don't get it, I just don't, maybe I'm old or something. But whatever, go for it.
 
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