016 or 01E?

[Mike Dozier]

OK...I'm ignorant.
I see a bunch of hoses hanging off the side of 944 Turbo
trannies, which I assume is some kind of cooling system.
Any of that transferrable to the 016?

MikeD

 

[andys]

Mike,

Some have posted that the differential carrier bearings for the 944 turbo trans and the 016 trans are different. If that is in fact the case, then the systems will not swap as the oil circulating pump on the 944 is integral to the differential side cover. The other stuff (like the rear cover with oil return line receptacle and the pump drive gear) I suspect do interchange. If the bearing race OD's for the side cover side of the differential carrier were/are the same, then this would be transferrable and a great swap. BTW, those hoses hanging off the side, are/is a single finned cooling line. Also notice how the oil is flowed from one end of the trans to the other, and that the pick up point is not at the lowest point in the sump.

As far as the 01E, it is only the Quattro version (not the FWD) that has a provision for an integral oil pump; AFAIK.

Andy

 

[Mark Worthington]

Andy, You and I certainly seem to be interested in these Audi boxes! But I think you and I are seeing things differently here, and/or I'm confused. Let me explain.

First, Rick said his setup uses a Tilton pump, which I believe is the black cylinder between the cooler and the gearbox. Your reply to Mike addressed potential problems with a mechanical oil pump working on an 016 if the carrier bearings are indeed bigger in the 944 trans. Your comments are, of course, spot on, but we're looking at an electrical pump setup here, not a mechanical one.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, those hoses hanging off the side, are/is a single finned cooling line. Also notice how the oil is flowed from one end of the trans to the other, and that the pick up point is not at the lowest point in the sump.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thnk Mike is talking about the six stainless-steel braided hoses (my guess is they are -6 size) while you are talking about the oil cooler. I think the pickup line is at the lowest point in the sump, towards the rear of the gearbox, just inboard of the pump. That looks like a -8 or maybe a -10 line. Here's how I read that plumbing setup: the pump is fed by a -8 line off the bottom of the gearbox, and oil is pumped by another -8 line to the top of the oil cooler. Cooled oil exits the bottom of the oil cooler and is fed into a 1X6 "exhaust" manifold under high pressure, where it is squirted under high pressure to the ring/pinion gear and to gears 1 through 5 via holes drilled and tapped into the gearbox case and fitted with 0.050" orifices. With the baffle plate inboard of the cooler it's hard to tell where the inlet and outlet to the cooler are, but that's my guess. There could be a thermostat lurking over there too. I see Rick's setup as a very elegant and not-that-hard-to-plumb (but fairly expensive) solution to keeping a gearbox happy.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the 01E, it is only the Quattro version (not the FWD) that has a provision for an integral oil pump; AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a 2WD 01E gearbox with the integral mechanical oil pump: transmission code EKN (part no. 01E 300 045Q/QX) is from the current European A8 and has very good top-end gearing and also has the mechanical oil pump (part no. 01E 315 105 C).

 

[Mike Dozier]

Mark

Andy was right. I was referring to the oil cooling line
I see in the E-bay photos for 944 turbo trannies.
I thought it might be an inexpensive force feed system
for the 016. But if the parts are not easily interchangeable, then that shoots that wish down in flames.

Like Ron, I'd be happy with just a single injection
line to cool the ring and pinion. I wonder if a simple
(cheap) little electric pump plumbed in line, through a cooler, would be possible?

In fact, I recall a photo on Ken Saunders KVA buildup website of such an arrangement on his Renault box.
But I have no idea what parts he used or the cost.

MikeD

 

[andys]

Hi Mark;

What I think Mike asked about the 944 turbo trans. Unless I mis-read his comment, he was referring to the coolant lines on the 944 turbo trans, and not the one pictured in the above post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gifMy appologies in advance if *I* got the whole thing wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif To clarify my post; my oil flow comment was directed to the 944 trans.

I am familiar with the Tilton pump. 1-2GPM @ 60psi max. Used by many a racer, for sure. The pictured set up, nicely done, is pretty typical of the up-side-down P trans set ups I've seen. I'd only comment that when doing this, would be to seek the advice from a P shop that has some experience with this to help with the layout so as not to do more harm than good. More things to consider than meets the eye.

You're probably right with regard to the Audi A8 01E code EKN having an oil cooling system. I never earmarked the EKN as a candidate due to its' poor 1st gear ratio.....I'm not at the office now so I can't check the specific ratio, but isn't it around 3.89? It is curious for sure, as to why Audi would put such a low ratio in a V8 powered car.

How are we doing Ron, did we stray too far OT??
Ok then, how about this Brammo Motorsports site with a G50/52 externally oiled......Also check out the rest of this Ultima build site if you haven't seen it already.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Mark Worthington]

Well, apparently I was confused!

Andy, none of the Audi 01E boxes have a first gear lower than 3.50. But my calculations show that my car would reach 35 mph in first gear at a redline of 6,500 rpm...that's not too bad. I have been told that there were a few 01E gearboxes made with numerically lower first gear ratios. I was told this by a guy affiliated with Northern European Automotive in New Hampshire, and he said that they didn't sell and that he had recently seen one of these special 2WD boxes sold for a ridiculously low price. I have asked him to look into availability of similar boxes for me. Northern European Automotive has also supplied gearboxes assembled and modified by Heinz Kluge in Germany. As I understand it, Herr Kluge was involved with the design of the Audi boxes and has a long history with Audi motorsports and has modified many 016 and 01E boxes for high-hp rally car use. I have Herr Kluge's phone number but don't speak enough German to feel comfortable contacting him. His services are still available, although not cheap. I believe one of his modified 01E boxes could easily handle 500+ ft-lb of torque and even clutch dumps, and the total package would probably cost less than what one of RBTs reconditioned ZFs does.

I will try to contact Herr Kluge and perhaps try to convince him to post on this forum, as I believe he is probably the best source of information in the world on the Audi boxes.

 

[Hershal Byrd]

I sure hope you can convince him Mark. I think he
would be very interesting. He might even be able to tel us as to which 016 box would be the best and what parts will interchange with the Porsche stuff.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Mark Worthington]

I have asked forum member Lukas Matzinger to contact Heinz Kluge directly and assist with translation if needed, and he has agreed. I just sent Lukas a list of questions for Heinz Kluge and hope to hear back soon. Stay tuned.

 

[Mark Worthington]

I have received a reply from Lukas (thanks, Lukas). I will post the reply in it's entirety below:

[ QUOTE ]
Mark,

I just spoke to him. My problem is the same as with my FFR Cobra, I only hang out on US forums so there a lots of technical terms I dont know in my mother language. Sounds stupid, I know! Also, my technical knowledge of transaxles is limited, so take everything I say with a grain of salt !!

1.Can we have some background information on Herr Kluge’s involvement with Getrag transaxles and Audi motorsports?

He was working directly for Audi mainly in the repair area, the fitting of the transmission to the cars and some developpment.

2.Which transaxle is stronger, 016 or 01E, and why?

Definitely the 01E, much better and also more modern.

3.How much torque can each one take in stock form?

Couldn’t give me detailed numbers. Depending on vehicle weight and the ability to hook up, around 300 to 400 nm (little bit less in lbs).

4.What is the weakest link in the 016 transaxle? In the 01E transaxle?

In the 016 it’s the first gear, I think he said in the 01E, too.

5.Are there differences in strength among the stock 016 transaxles? Among the stock 01E transaxles?
The 016 seems to have been very similar over the years, but the 01E has been developed and is still used.

6.Can the tailshaft of a Quattro transaxle simply be cut off and a new tailhousing used to convert it for 2WD duty, or do we need to use only 2WD transaxles?

Cutting off will not be that simple, as the rear(?) output still needs to be working. He said some people simply put a “dummy” solid axle on there to convert it to 2WD, but this might not make it short enough to fit the 40. But the rest of the innards seems to be very similar/same.

7.What modifications does Herr Kluge perform to the 016 and 01E transaxles and what does it cost? How much torque can the Kluge-modified gearboxes take?

If you were hoping to find a Derek Bell solution, I have to disappoint you. He mainly does repairs but also manufactures some other parts. Not exactly sure which ones.

8.The first gear on the 016 and 01E transaxles is typically 3.50 and above, which is too high for many V8 applications. Are numerically lower first gear ratios available as part of Herr Kluge’s modifications?

First gears are not available. The short gears were made for diesel cars, which don’t rev as high. He said first gear is part of the main shaft (?) and is very hard to change out. Even race cars use the same mainshaft but it is treated some way (heat probably) to give a little bit more strength. A new standard one would run around 900 USD, and even if having a batch of 30 made, a customs one will easily cost 3 or 4 times that.

9.At what power level is transaxle gearbox oil cooling recommended? How are the oil cooling systems configures?

This cannot be uniformly answered as it really depends on many factors. As a general rule, the temperature in the gearbox should not be above 120 °C for continuous use. You would have to measure temp and see if you get above that. The easiest setup is the mechanical one used on the 01E (might be only Quattro) which works very well.

10.Is there a US distributor for Herr Kluges transaxles and services?

Nope. He does his work in a shop in Germany (sounds like a medium sized transmission shop to me)


His general opinion was that we should concentrate on the 01E, as the 016 is long since obsolete and all production rights (for spare parts maybe) have been sold to China. The 01E is more up-to-date and has more aftermarket support.

According to him, his English is good enough to talk about this stuff, and you are welcome to give him a call if you want to know more details. If you do, Germany has a 6+ hour time difference to Mass and most shops are open from 8-5pm.

Hope this helps,
Lukas

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I was rather hoping for a Derek Bell-type solution, but it looks as if we will have to live with minimum rations of 3.50 for first gear and 3.88 for the final drive, for a total torque multiplication of 13.58 in first gear. Good for drag racing anyway!

Any other questions we should ask Herr Kluge?

 

[Ron Earp]

Yes!

Ask him if he wants to make some cash shipping used boxes here. I can get them in small lots, 2-3 at a time every 6 months or so but it is a lot of work for me. I have to be over visiting, which I do every 6 months at least, but I have to build in a couple of days to get boxes and ship them.

R

 

I show two 1st gear ratio's available for the 01E used in the A8. 01E ratio for code EKN according to my sources; 1st gear is 31/8 or 3.875, p/n 01E 311 257 M. With a 3.75 R&P, that yields a net of 14.53:1. A 3.50:1 1st is not listed for the A8. Maybe the best way to remove any doubt, would be to count the turns.

I did an *oops* and didn't post the Brammo link showing G50/52 oiling system.....here you go: http://www.brammo.com/ultima/buildjournal/transaxle/G5052.html

Andy

 

[Mike Dozier]

Mark

1. As Ron mentioned...we could use some 3U code 016 boxes.
If they are too expensive to crate/ship, maybe just the
removable gears would be fine. How hard to swap out?
DUMB QUESTION...are new 3U gears available from Audi?

2. Any idea whether the 093 trans uses the same shaft
and/or gears as the 016? The 093 3Q box has really
nice ratios for a V-8. Same deal as above...may be
cheaper to pull the gears since the case appears
to be different.

3. 01E's would be nice...but there is no used 2WD source
in the US. What do they cost used in Germany?
Might be economical to have some used 016s and 01E's
all shipped together.

MikeD

 

[Hershal Byrd]

OK guys, here's what I have found out. I called Audi for Wholesale prices on the 01E 2wd. They are $11,300 new and rebuilt ones go for $7,000. The 016 5N boxes cost $2,200. new and $1,200 rebuilt.
Robert of RF has sourced the 2wd six speed 01E box from a dealer in Europe. They are new and have to be bought in quantity. Robert is prepared to offer these at his cost for $7,000 U.S. less LSD and shipping.
Robert has installed one of these in a RFGT40 and it works beautifully. The only thing needed to switch to this in an RF is one half shaft shortened and a different shift linkage.
If anybody is interested please send me an e mail.
Personally I'm sticking with the 016 box until the old bank roll fattens up a bit. As long as I use the trans properly without Drag racing it I will be fine. This 016 is a good box and as long as I treat it as a 4 speed then it will OK. Perhaps next year I will make the switch to the 01E.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Gary Gibbs]

[ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I was rather hoping for a Derek Bell-type solution, but it looks as if we will have to live with minimum rations of 3.50 for first gear and 3.88 for the final drive,

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you ask about fitting the US spec 944 Turbo R&P at 3.375:1? Will it work? Also is it easier to make custom R&P's in bulk then worry about the first gear?

 

[Mike Dozier]

Gary

I bought a Haynes Manual for an Audi 84-88 5000 and the transmission section has good info/photos on the 016.
One reason the R&P is so expensive is because unlike
a traditional rear end, these pinion gears are 1-piece
machining as part of the cluster gear shaft.
So I can see why they are not cheap.
Still...if the 944 R&P can be made to work, it's worth
investigating.

Hersh...Can Audi come up with rebuilt 3U boxes?
5N's are OK...but not the answer to the maiden's prayer.
By the way...it appears to me that Robert is correct
about changing 5th gear on the 016 being simple.
Until he unleashes his new 5th, someone may consider
using an AAZ box with 5th gear installed out of the 5N.
That drops final drive in 5th from 3.34 to 2.84.
Not as good as the 3U...but better than either AAZ or 5N.

MikeD

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Mike,
Robert is expecting some of the 5 speed gears soon. As soon as it is tested he will get more produced to sell. I still have my 5N transaxle and can honestly say I don't notice any significate differences between first gear. I still do not use 1st gear with the 3U box. The only bebefit I was looking for was a decent cruise RPM at highr speeds.
If I was to do lots of track work I would stay with the 5N trans on small to medium tracks.Even with the 5N trans I never used 1st and never reached a speed where I needed 5th gear.
I didn't ask about 3U trans but I would bet they are available new in europe at an Audi dealer. What we need is a member here on this forum that lives in Germany and can help us all out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Mike Dozier]

Hersh

That's understandable since all 016's have the same
first gear ratio of 3.60 and there really isn't much difference between a 3.89 R&P and a 4.11 R&P.
It's the 2-3-4-5 gear ratios of the 3U that make it
stand out from the US available 016 boxes.

Robert's new 5th gear will certainly be a fast and easy
way to drop the highway revs...but it won't address the
gear spread (for those that want a wider ratio box).
Changing the R&P to the 3.38 should help,
but apparently that's not easy/inexpensive to do.
Thanks for keeping us posted.

MikeD

 

When I posted this question I was motivated by my confusion as to what gearbox to use. I can truly understand the cost benefits of the 016 but have a personel problem with having a gearbox that is not completely functional. Dropping fist and turning high RPM in fifth just seems not to be the best solution.

Looking at the cost being quoted for 01E's or 3U's I'm now wondering if it just would not be a better solution to go wit a G50? It seem that the ratios are better, the box is stronger and parts are available in the US.

Let those of you with wisdom lead me into the light.

Peter

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Peter,
I think the 01E six peed box will be just as strong as G50 box in my opinion. I only say this because Audi is putting 450 horsepower through that box in the RS6. I think 5,000 for a new 6speed that strong is in the ball park. If you buy a Porsche box they run rebuilt for about $2500. Then you will have to buy all the adapterss, clutch, flywheel, shift linkage and other bits to make it work. If you put it in the RF you will have to lower the engine mounts. Putting the 01E in the RF is easy as it only requires you to exchange one of the half shafts and the new shift linkage .

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Mark Worthington]

Hershal, can you tell us what the transmission code is for the 01E boxes that Robert is looking at? As I've said, I think the EKN is the best of the 2WD boxes because it has the integral oil pump, as well as very good ratios (2200 rpm at 75 mph cruise if I recall correctly).

I updated the Audi gear selection spreadsheet that someone (Neal, maybe?) posted to this forum a while back. I set up a second tab with some of the 2WD 01E ratios. I'll put it on my web site and post a link to it later.