I understand that our (USA) election in November will be the first time in our history that more than 50% of those earning a wage in the USA pay no tax. This is dangerous as they, the non tax payers, can now vote to tax more to those that pay the tax. I think that if you don't have skin in the game, you shouldn't be able to vote and actually, if everyone paid a flat tax percentage, people will be more interested in how their particular government works and spends it's money.
An interesting spin on taxation...
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I like the flat tax idea. It has worked in a number of countries around Europe and other parts of the world. A friend runs Iowans for Discounted Taxes.
Iowans for Discounted Taxes - Tax Relief for Iowa
Iowans for Discounted Taxes - Tax Relief for Iowa
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Great and do it very simply by charging a levy on every receipt banked in every account in the country and every amount transferred out the country. Shall we say 10%? 15%? 20%? 25%
I think you'll be amazed but probably get away with 1 to 2%
Who would complain at a tax rate that low?
Sure you will lose a small % on pure cash deals but eventually even these people will pay at a bar, petrol station, supermarket etc. so the tax will be paid.
The banks need to pay this over to the government every day - no point letting them have the Government funds for ANY time and risk them not paying, and the banks must not cherge for this service - time for them to pay back for the bail out!
Sure I hear you shout but the rich they don't pay their share
Sure they do on any receipt they get and they will pay more for higher end goods.
Say they want to get a Sofa Delivered by Sears. Sears receives the cash - taxed, sears pays supplier (or importer) taxed, Supplier / importer pays for product (Funds leaving the country are taxed too) pays for parts of sofa - springs , leather etc - taxed. So add all the taxes of the high end products and you pay more tax than someone who goes to a market and buys fresh veg / fruit.
My guess is you'd get away with a "Deposit" tax of 1%
Look at the GDP's on the attached - take 1% and see which government cannot come out on that!
Remember this is on Gross domestic Product - so a huge number - pity the information is so out of date! - 2006
GDP (most recent) by country
Just food for thought
Ian
Ian,
There was mention of replacing US Federal Tax with a National Sales Tax (read VAT) of 20% probably on all goods. I don't have the details of this, but in this case, the rich will again be paying the bulk of the taxes, but it will force everyone to pony up to some share of the tax burden.
There was mention of replacing US Federal Tax with a National Sales Tax (read VAT) of 20% probably on all goods. I don't have the details of this, but in this case, the rich will again be paying the bulk of the taxes, but it will force everyone to pony up to some share of the tax burden.
That, or the Fair Tax that "everyone" pays each time they purchase anything! No income tax, no capital gain tax, no inheritance tax, etc. Just a tax on all purchases. People on welfare would finally pay for something instead of leaching off of the wage earners. The savings on the reduction of government by doing away with the IRS would be a ton of money.
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Dom
That system of VAT does not work - companies reclaim for their input tax and only pay on the "Value Added" by their company
The rate on this must therefore be much higher
It is also open to fraud, errors etc.
Take the tax at time of receipt into the bank and no way of avoiding it for anyone
Ian
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
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Ian and Al,
Both good points. An old friend from Italy, who is a banker, told me some years ago that the way Italy put its income tax system into place was by what you say Ian, taxing at the bank.
The Italian government franchises the banks to be its agent in collecting income tax. Its pretty hard to avoid paying taxes that way when your banker knows what comes and goes.
Regarding VAT, the consumer ultimately pays for it, and it costs companies a heap of cash along the way. I don't think VAT is a good system as we have it in Europe.
Both good points. An old friend from Italy, who is a banker, told me some years ago that the way Italy put its income tax system into place was by what you say Ian, taxing at the bank.
The Italian government franchises the banks to be its agent in collecting income tax. Its pretty hard to avoid paying taxes that way when your banker knows what comes and goes.
Regarding VAT, the consumer ultimately pays for it, and it costs companies a heap of cash along the way. I don't think VAT is a good system as we have it in Europe.
Guys,
I think we're getting somewhere her....
My personal view is a sales tax that is high enough to get rid of VAT, PAYE (income tax for you guys over the pond), council tax etc etc...
Lets make it 20% (or whatever) on ANYTHING purchased.
So..... If I have loads of money and CHOOSE to buy a Bugatti Veyron, it will cost me X amount more. If I am not flush with cash and all I can afford is a Ford Fiesta (nowt wrong with that) then my X amount in tax is hugely less than the tax on the Veyron...
Likewise if I by a big house, the tax, as a percentage is a lot more than a small terraced house,
BUT... we have to find a way to give tax breaks for those who earn minimum wage otherwise there will still be something of an imbalance. I'm not suggesting they get off scott free, just away of redressing the balance somewhat.
I love it's simplicity... Get rid of 400,000 public servants who administer the tax system (we'll find them jobs somwhere else), and the BIG benefit is that the black economy (i.e. cash transactions) become IRRELEVANT. As soon as the cash is converted into anything, it is taxed anyway...I appreciate that it's a relatively simplistic view, but it could really work with the right rules and regulations in place.
Just my (seasonally adjusted) £3.27 worth guys...
Graham.
I think we're getting somewhere her....
My personal view is a sales tax that is high enough to get rid of VAT, PAYE (income tax for you guys over the pond), council tax etc etc...
Lets make it 20% (or whatever) on ANYTHING purchased.
So..... If I have loads of money and CHOOSE to buy a Bugatti Veyron, it will cost me X amount more. If I am not flush with cash and all I can afford is a Ford Fiesta (nowt wrong with that) then my X amount in tax is hugely less than the tax on the Veyron...
Likewise if I by a big house, the tax, as a percentage is a lot more than a small terraced house,
BUT... we have to find a way to give tax breaks for those who earn minimum wage otherwise there will still be something of an imbalance. I'm not suggesting they get off scott free, just away of redressing the balance somewhat.
I love it's simplicity... Get rid of 400,000 public servants who administer the tax system (we'll find them jobs somwhere else), and the BIG benefit is that the black economy (i.e. cash transactions) become IRRELEVANT. As soon as the cash is converted into anything, it is taxed anyway...I appreciate that it's a relatively simplistic view, but it could really work with the right rules and regulations in place.
Just my (seasonally adjusted) £3.27 worth guys...
Graham.
The Fair tax is 23% on everything with no other taxes. No filing each year, done, finished business. If you buy it, you pay the tax, no shelters, everyone pays.
You need to read the book that was put out by the authors, congressman John Linder and talk show host, Neil Boortz.
Amazon.com: The FairTax Book (9780060875411): Neal Boortz, John Linder: Books New books run $3.49. In it he tells how the "poor" are taken care of. If their income is less than 40K they receive a "prebate" on their purchases up to that amount. Every one is entitled to the cost of the basic necessities of life. There is even a calculator to show how much it would help you if the fair tax were implemented. The Fairtax Calculator
It also says it cannot go into effect until the 16th amendment is repealed. Otherwise you have two systems of taxation. The book is short and easy to read. The system as it is today has a series of taxes built in along the path of manufacture. With the fair tax, those taxes are done away with and replaced with the fair tax. Almost all goods and services would retain their original price that was there before the fair tax was implemented. + you get your full paycheck without anything withheld. You make 60K a year, you get 60K.
The book also tackles the issues of the transition from the regular taxes to the fair tax as some of the goods will still have their taxes built in. Here are the FAQs Americans For Fair Taxation: Frequently Asked Questions
It is an easy read. And, oh yeah, the profits of the book went to charity. They made no money off of it. I don't propose I know it all, but I love what I do know.
Bill
Amazon.com: The FairTax Book (9780060875411): Neal Boortz, John Linder: Books New books run $3.49. In it he tells how the "poor" are taken care of. If their income is less than 40K they receive a "prebate" on their purchases up to that amount. Every one is entitled to the cost of the basic necessities of life. There is even a calculator to show how much it would help you if the fair tax were implemented. The Fairtax Calculator
It also says it cannot go into effect until the 16th amendment is repealed. Otherwise you have two systems of taxation. The book is short and easy to read. The system as it is today has a series of taxes built in along the path of manufacture. With the fair tax, those taxes are done away with and replaced with the fair tax. Almost all goods and services would retain their original price that was there before the fair tax was implemented. + you get your full paycheck without anything withheld. You make 60K a year, you get 60K.
The book also tackles the issues of the transition from the regular taxes to the fair tax as some of the goods will still have their taxes built in. Here are the FAQs Americans For Fair Taxation: Frequently Asked Questions
It is an easy read. And, oh yeah, the profits of the book went to charity. They made no money off of it. I don't propose I know it all, but I love what I do know.
Bill
It's simple, and easy. I like it!
Bill
Definitely.
Sounds an interesting book, might get a couple of copies and send one to our chancellor.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Plus 10000 mate, I came from a very poor family no old money' had to lick road clean on way to work etc. You were lucky! Do I resent paying tax? Bloody oath! Not because I don't think we should contribute to the less fortunate, but because the bloody politicians waste it. When I sold my business I employed more than 70 people directly and many many more indirectly, I am sure that has done more for the economy and the so called poor people than any politician and the millions I have paid in tax.
If we spent money we didn't have like our government, we would be in jail on fraud charges! Try sending the IRS a rubber check.
A national sales tax would result in the ultra wealthy paying even less than they do now. Why? Because the ultra wealthy spend much, much less than they earn. That is, one of the ways they became ultra wealthy in the first place.
The people who will be paying more under a national sales tax regime are the people who generally pay no income tax now - the elderly/retired folks, and the out-of-work folks, disabled folks, and the young. I'm not so sure these categories of people are the most capable of paying more.
Again, it's the ultra wealthy who are escaping paying their fair share right now - they're the ones that need to pay what the Tax Code intended them to pay, but aren't.
ps. the "ultra wealthy" are generally now considered to be people with annual incomes of $1,000,000+ USD or liquid net worth of $25,000,000+ USD.
The people who will be paying more under a national sales tax regime are the people who generally pay no income tax now - the elderly/retired folks, and the out-of-work folks, disabled folks, and the young. I'm not so sure these categories of people are the most capable of paying more.
Again, it's the ultra wealthy who are escaping paying their fair share right now - they're the ones that need to pay what the Tax Code intended them to pay, but aren't.
ps. the "ultra wealthy" are generally now considered to be people with annual incomes of $1,000,000+ USD or liquid net worth of $25,000,000+ USD.
Comments from a friend on the Fair Tax issue:
The "Fair Tax" is a longer subject, but it's a bad deal because the government collects all the money and sets the rate: it's 30% at the minimum. And it's unfair: two families of four making $25,000 and $500,000 get the same rebate, which means the social justice group will have a field day tearing it apart.
Will try to get more details on this.
The "Fair Tax" is a longer subject, but it's a bad deal because the government collects all the money and sets the rate: it's 30% at the minimum. And it's unfair: two families of four making $25,000 and $500,000 get the same rebate, which means the social justice group will have a field day tearing it apart.
Will try to get more details on this.
Cliff,
You guys kill me when you come up with this idea that the wealthy don't spend enough. How much is enough? Who gets tp decide what is enough. YOU???
For the wealthy that earned their wealth, studies show that they got that way by not spending frivolously and SAVED their money. There is no rule you have to spend all your money. You have obviously not read the book or I think you wouldn't said those things.
Three things that you would see if you read the book.
First, you get your ENTIRE paycheck.You get to spend it on the things you want. If you choose to spend it all and save nothing that is your CHOICE. If you choose to spend little and save a lot, again your choice. The wealthy do spend more than the "less wealthy". In order to support the life style it cost more, unless you are a wealthy person living in a double wide. And don't spout that crap about proportionate spending. That is a classic class warfare argument. If the rich spent a proportionate amount where would they put it all???? There are some things in life more important than consumption!!! Maybe saving,,,,investing,,,, starting a new business????
Second, The price that they have pegged as revenue neutral is 23%. With this, all the built in taxes are done away with, and the price is the same after institution as before. They have done the research and have the figures to back it up. Given the debt that has been added it may be a % higher. Don't know.
Third, The poor get a check each month equal to the amount they spend on the basic goods and services up to the poverty level which I think is 40K now. Could be wrong on that number. The wealthy don't get a check. So that defeats any argument of the poor paying higher amounts. They are getting their full paycheck AND a prebate.
All this nonsense of rich vs poor has got to stop. It is ludicrous. ?The people who have money spend more than the poor, PERIOD. If you are poor and don't like it, get training, education, experience, or a second job. Most of the poor are by way of choice. They made bad decisions and are that way as a result. Most can correct those decisions by working hard and earning their turnaround. Yes there are some that are victims of circumstance, but even those can pull themselves up if they work hard at it. Those that are disabled or are true victims are excluded from this diatribe. I also think that the "poor" in the U S are way ahead of those same class people in other countrys. You see a lot(not all) with cell phones and nice cars, expensive clothes, and still using food stamps.
Enough already. Really Cliff I am not trying to beatup on you just the ideas that people have that keep this stuff on class warfare going thinking it helps. It just hurts. It was the arguments the communist(Carl Marx) used to institute the graduated income tax. I encourage you to read the book. It is only 224 pages long, an easy read. Then there is the second book to answer all the critics or arguments raised by the first book. Fair Tax The Truth. it is 224 pages. Then lets hear the arguments, or better still call in to the Neal Boortz talk show on WSB AM 1 (877) 310-2100 (404) 872-0750 in the Atlanta area and ask the questions, or go to his web site for links and info:
Boortz on boortz.com
Bill
You guys kill me when you come up with this idea that the wealthy don't spend enough. How much is enough? Who gets tp decide what is enough. YOU???
For the wealthy that earned their wealth, studies show that they got that way by not spending frivolously and SAVED their money. There is no rule you have to spend all your money. You have obviously not read the book or I think you wouldn't said those things.
Three things that you would see if you read the book.
First, you get your ENTIRE paycheck.You get to spend it on the things you want. If you choose to spend it all and save nothing that is your CHOICE. If you choose to spend little and save a lot, again your choice. The wealthy do spend more than the "less wealthy". In order to support the life style it cost more, unless you are a wealthy person living in a double wide. And don't spout that crap about proportionate spending. That is a classic class warfare argument. If the rich spent a proportionate amount where would they put it all???? There are some things in life more important than consumption!!! Maybe saving,,,,investing,,,, starting a new business????
Second, The price that they have pegged as revenue neutral is 23%. With this, all the built in taxes are done away with, and the price is the same after institution as before. They have done the research and have the figures to back it up. Given the debt that has been added it may be a % higher. Don't know.
Third, The poor get a check each month equal to the amount they spend on the basic goods and services up to the poverty level which I think is 40K now. Could be wrong on that number. The wealthy don't get a check. So that defeats any argument of the poor paying higher amounts. They are getting their full paycheck AND a prebate.
All this nonsense of rich vs poor has got to stop. It is ludicrous. ?The people who have money spend more than the poor, PERIOD. If you are poor and don't like it, get training, education, experience, or a second job. Most of the poor are by way of choice. They made bad decisions and are that way as a result. Most can correct those decisions by working hard and earning their turnaround. Yes there are some that are victims of circumstance, but even those can pull themselves up if they work hard at it. Those that are disabled or are true victims are excluded from this diatribe. I also think that the "poor" in the U S are way ahead of those same class people in other countrys. You see a lot(not all) with cell phones and nice cars, expensive clothes, and still using food stamps.
Enough already. Really Cliff I am not trying to beatup on you just the ideas that people have that keep this stuff on class warfare going thinking it helps. It just hurts. It was the arguments the communist(Carl Marx) used to institute the graduated income tax. I encourage you to read the book. It is only 224 pages long, an easy read. Then there is the second book to answer all the critics or arguments raised by the first book. Fair Tax The Truth. it is 224 pages. Then lets hear the arguments, or better still call in to the Neal Boortz talk show on WSB AM 1 (877) 310-2100 (404) 872-0750 in the Atlanta area and ask the questions, or go to his web site for links and info:
Boortz on boortz.com
Bill
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