Cleveland or Windsor

[George]

Hey guys,

If one is building a 351C stroked to say just over 400ci, or they use a 351W stroked to just over 400ci...

Why would one rather the W and why the C given the same ci, and which one in theory/practice at those ci would have better power, not necessarily peak power, but more power on average over the curve?

We are talking around 500-550hp.

Just trying to understand the whole Clevland/windsor thing.

On the other hand, if one goes an alloy SB, Dart Block, is that non-related to C or W? Is there a C or W style in alloy?

Thank you.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Re: C or W

Good luck, I am still trying to figure this out after years... I think Clevelands are a bit more robust, but they have bigger main bearings, so Cleveland performance engines are sometimes fitted with special cranks that have smaller mains, or something like that. And I think the Boss 302 is a hybrid of Cleveland and Windsor design. Maybe someone will reference an article that explains the differences, and I will finally get it.

I do think the engine mounts are a bit different, and Clevelands are bigger, so they may not fit into a GT40 the same way a Windsor does. As far as authenticity, Windsors were first and Clevelands came later on AFAIK, but all the sixties race motors in GT40s were Windsors. I don't even think they had that name back then- at least I don't recall it. They were just 260s, 289s, 302s, etc. The big engines then were 390s and 427s..

 

[John]

the old addedge is if you want it to rev use a windsor, if you want torque use a cleveland
cheers John

 

[Doug S.]

Windsor engines use heads with "in-line" valves, Clevelands use heads with staggered/canted valves. Those of us who are fans of the Cleveland engine design really like the broad torque band they develop, but unless you do a considerable amount of block work to the oiling system the Cleveland isn't great for sustained high RPM usage.

There are other minor differences...the Cleveland's intake manifold is dry whereas the Windsor has crossover passages at the front, the Cleveland came with essentially two "size" heads--"smaller" ports on the 2-V equipped engines, which were actually larger than most if not all GM/Chevy SBC ports, and even larger ports on the 4-V equipped engines. Further variations in cylinder heads were specific to the "Boss 351" series (and the later low-compression "351 HO" offerings), with quench chambers and solid-lifter accommodations such as screw-in rocker studs. Deck height is slightly higher on the Windsor (I think...and it's not much) and there are differences between the front end (water pump/timing chain housing) between the two blocks. Bellhousing patterns are the same for the Windsors and the Celveland, but the two other 335 series engines use the larger bellhousing bolt pattern for the 385 series engines.

Many consider the "335" series engines (the 351C, the 351M, and the 400M) to be the best pushrod engine ever developed by Ford.

The original Boss 302 was a "hybrid"...a 302CID Windsor short block onto which Cleveland heads were fitted. It was designed as an engine with which Ford could win SCCA "Trans Am" road races, back in the day when Ford's motto was "What wins on the racetrack over the weekend sells in the showrooms during the week".

The Cleveland does present some challenges for the 40, not the least of which is that the engine was not historically available as the 40's were battling Enzo on the road courses, so it isn't used much. One of our members has an ERA MkI with a Cleveland. I haven't seen Dave Wharren online for a long time, but he has a few photos on his forum membership page if you'd like to see.

These days the "Cleveland" style cylinder heads are known for another combination, a "Clevor", to be specific. It seems the Cleveland blocks had oiling systems that left the mains a bit dry at high RPM, but the Windsor blocks utilize "priority" oiling that sends oil to the mains first.....so, people started doing what Ford did with the original Boss 302 and put Cleveland heads onto Windsor blocks to create what is called a "Clevor". Clevor engines use the Windsor block, with its smaller main bearings and better oiling system design, but Cleveland heads are modified to use a special intake manifold. The combo is capable of huge amounts of power, as proven many times by their success in Popular Hot Rodding's "Engine Master" power contests.

There's more in the way of differences, but that's a fair start....the newer line of "Boss 302" blocks and aftermarket engines Ford is selling right now are WINDSOR blocks (as was the original Boss 302), and are NOT fitted with canted-valve heads, as were the original Ford factory Boss 302 engines.

Many other highly revered engines use the canted-valve arrangement...Ford's 385 series (429 CID/460 CID) as well as Chevy's big-block (the 396/402, 427, and 454's).

Windsor blocks are available in alloy, Cleveland blocks not so much so, although an individual did have a few cast at great expense quite a while ago. It was a highly watched release that unfortunately came too late, as Ford focused development on it's modular and now their "Coyote" 4-V headed engines.

IMHO the 351C is the "prettiest" engine ever produced by Ford. My Cobra replica will someday have a 302 "Clevor" rather than the Windsor it has now.....and that engine will also go into a 40 if I ever get that chance, too.

Clevelands are real torque-monsters if you stroke them.....sizes of 393 and 408 CID are not uncommon. I've been dreaming about a 351-Windsor alloy block bored and stroked to 427 CID with alloy aftermarket Cleveland heads....an all-alloy 427 Clevor, that "magical" displacement with a much more effective intake system, the best of both worlds!!

Cheers!

Doug

 

[George]

Well, thank you for that.

So essentially, the Windsors had better oiling/rpms while the clevlands had better torque, so if one goes a 'clevor', they would receive the good oiling/rpms and gain the torque of the Clevland?

When I asked an engine builder for an alloy block that can go to 7000+ rpm, they told me they would use the Alloy Dart Block.

What is that in relation to Windsors/Clevlands/Clevors?

Anyone got experience with the D-block?

 

[Ron Earp]

Fixes for the Cleveland oiling system are well-known and routinely done by knowledgeable Ford engine builders. So, you needn't think you must build a Windsor due to oiling issues.

R

 

[Doug S.]

Well, thank you for that.

So essentially, the Windsors had better oiling/rpms while the clevlands had better torque, so if one goes a 'clevor', they would receive the good oiling/rpms and gain the torque of the Clevland?

When I asked an engine builder for an alloy block that can go to 7000+ rpm, they told me they would use the Alloy Dart Block.

What is that in relation to Windsors/Clevlands/Clevors?

Anyone got experience with the D-block?

Dart is just the company that produces the block, the company has no relationship to Ford or its products....Dart alloy blocks are well respected and quite expensive.

G-Man, here's why I think the Cleveland/Clevor makes such good low RPM torque...the valves of a Windsor are pressed into action by the rocker arm in a direction identical to that of the cylinder. When the intake valve opens, it is fairly close to the cylinder wall and the intake flow has to flow "around" the valve as it enters the cylinder. However, with the canted vavle of the Cleveland, the further into the cylinder the rocker arm pushes the valve, the more it is "unshrouded" as the direction of travel causes the valve to be further from the cylinder wall. This benefits the flow of the intake charge, yielding greater cylinder filling and therefore power.

As for the oiling benefits of the Clevor, IMHO the Windsor block's priority oiling system is much better suited for high RPM usage....I don't think 7K would be impossible with a Windsor-based block (although, have you thought about a 302CID Clevor.....surely 7K capability there!!), but with any Cleveland bock 7K is very risky at all, not to mention for extended periods. The weight of that much rotating assembly naturally limits the upper RPM limits, the smaller assembly can naturally spin much faster before detonating.

Fixes for the Cleveland oiling system are well-known and routinely done by knowledgeable Ford engine builders. So, you needn't think you must build a Windsor due to oiling issues.

R

Right you are, Ron! Cleaning up the block's oil passages, installing metered orifices to limit the amount of oil going to the upper end of the engine so that the lower end gets enough lubrication....standard procedures, surely, but the purpose designed "priority oiling" system of the Windsor delivers the oil first to the mains, IMHO a much better system.

Still, even with those mods, it was difficult to keep a Cleveland alive over 6K for much time....if I were to do it again I'd just start with the Windsor block and deal with the adaptation issues presented by the head swap.

The Cleveland is a glorious engine, though, IMHO....a very unique look, a sound like no other Ford engine....such a disappoitment that we only had them available here in the U.S. for a few years. There is quite a bit of development now going on with the remainder of the 335 series Ford engines....the 351M and the 400M.

Without getting too technical, G-Man, I'd say if you plan on turning your engine at 7K regularly, you'd be better off with the Windsor block. If you want stump-pulling low end grunt with good mid-range power, just not the high-RPM capabilities you have always said you were after, the Cleveland is your baby!!!!

If you really want to go lightweight (alloy block), then your options are limited with the Cleveland, though.....it's an "old" design, not much in the way of development going on these days, will probably be lost to history the way the DOHC 4-valve headed engines are making such insane power these days!

Cheers!

Doug

 

[George]

Well, sound wise, I know I liked this

GENERAL LEE 426 HEMI - YouTube

Just click around the 1min 10sec mark.

I know thats a Dodge with a supposed 426ci Hemi, but, from Mopar owners I have heard that is not the sound of an actual 426ci but some small block race motor, like an LS chevy or something rather.

Either way, thats the rough sound I like, sounds like a monster truck (to some degree) with that growl in it. I tried to find some Clevland stuff, doesnt seem like they sound anything like this and I think the closest I got to that was a Roush, that based off a Windsor?

I guess the only real question is then, is there even a purpose/advantage to a motor going 7000+ rpm other than how it sounds, no point having sight set for '7000+' if really, the same time goal can easily be achieved with say 4000-6000rpm and a little more torque down low.

I just wanted an engine with a large power curve as that is better than peak power, and as little weight as possible. Suggestions were made that I start with a 351ci, stroke to perhaps 408ci to increase low end torque/power curve and with the right light weight internal parts, still make safely 7000rpm.

Maybe an engine build idea from a builder would be good to produce to look at what is going on and give council?

 

[Ron Earp]

You'll find posts from me on this forum from years ago questioning "why a Cleveland". My line of reasoning was that if you could get it done with a Windsor then why bother with the old antiquated Cleveland (at least in the US, I realize it lived a long life elsewhere) which would cause you headache.

But after owning a stock one in my Torino I grew to like it even on looks alone. It didn't hurt that even stock it'd out-rev any stock Windsor I'd ever owned. Anyhow, I've come around on my thinking and like the Cleveland. When I did a new motor for the Torino it was going to be either a big inch big block or a screamer Cleveland. I did the big block, but would not hesitate to have a C motor built. Cool engines. One of the coolest Ford engines IMHO.

Did Tod Buttermore (spelling?) ever cast any of the ally blocks? I know that some folks on the Cleveland board were waiting on those and I thought about trying to get one myself, but then figured it might be some vaporware. In fact, I think "4 valve head what's his name guy" was on the waiting list and he gave up. If he gave up, then it must have been rough getting one.

If Jac Mac were still around he'd be the man to set you right on the Windsor Cleveland thing. He knows his stuff.

Still, even with those mods, it was difficult to keep a Cleveland alive over 6K for much time....if I were to do it again I'd just start with the Windsor block and deal with the adaptation issues presented by the head swap.

Tell that to my former Ford engine man! I believe you, but he shifts his Cleveland at 8800-9200 RPM in his drag Mustang and had over 190 some passes in it and still going strong. But, he's the builder and could spend endless amounts of time with all the goodies to make it just so. And, I realize drag racing isn't road racing, but damn, 8000 RPM+ is serious RPM.

 

[Doug S.]

I guess the only real question is then, is there even a purpose/advantage to a motor going 7000+ rpm other than how it sounds, no point having sight set for '7000+' if really, the same time goal can easily be achieved with say 4000-6000rpm and a little more torque down low.

Take a good look at an engine's dyno chart....horsepower and torque cross at around 5,280 RPM, with horsepower (hopefully) continuing to build, but torque diminishing. If you can build an engine with high RPM capabilities, the potential to build huge horsepower numbers is there (look at the rice-burners, over 500 HP from a Honda 4 cylinder is not unusual, but at an RPM level that makes it unavailable on all roads except for a race-track).


Torque is what gets you going, horsepower keeps you going....

As for your "real question", I'd say you are beginning to become clear on the concept. You might well be able to build an engine that can turn 7K all day long, but in the overall scheme of things how often are you going to twist it that high? The answer is probably not often, and even then probably not for long. Torque is where the fun is, although that high RPM "snarl" is a great sound, I must admit!!

IMHO your best choice is to get an engine with a "flat" torque curve. To that respect the tuners are getting huge power numbers and very flat torque curves from the programmable EFI systems. High RPM capabilities may be important in that last 100 feet on a dragstrip, but the transaxles keep the 40 from being a decent dragstrip machine. Take a look at some of the racetrack videos posted....how often do you see the tachometers going into the stratospheric RPM ranges? Not often, even on the race courses.

In the overall scheme of things, reducing the weight of your 40 will yield the same result as more power (after all, what we're talking here is horsepower:weight ratio), but will also benefit handling and braking.

The best advice I've gotten here on the forum is "....save your money on the engine build, 350 HP is more than enough. Go light and buy big brakes, they'll never catch you".

Cheers!

Doug

 

[David]

Take a good look at an engine's dyno chart....horsepower and torque cross at around 5,280 RPM, with horsepower (hopefully) continuing to build, but torque diminishing.

Not quite. The crossing is just maths and there is nothing to say torque will drop after that point.

As rather an extreme example look at bike engines, barely get into their stride below 5k and in this example peak torque is at about 12500rpm!

 

[Doug S.]

Help me out, here.

The bottom, ruler straight blue line (and the red and green lines right above it) are A/F ratios, right?

The graph that courses left to right above it, most of it right between 30 and slightly above 40, that is torque, right?

The graph that courses primarily diagonally, rising toward the right margin, that is horsepower, right?

If so, it appears that horsepower and torque cross right after the 5,000 RPM point.

What is it that I am missing?

Otherwise, your chart is an excellent example off exactly what I was trying to relay to G-Man...that if you can hold your engine together at extremely high RPM levels, there is a LOT of horsepower to be made, but in an automotive motor it is power that we almost NEVER use on the street, or perhaps even on the racetrack.

Cheers!

Doug

 

[David]

Yes, that's right. The point I was countering was that you said torque 'diminishes' after 5280. That crossing point is purely a mathematical entity and there is no 'rule' that says torque will drop after that point as my example shows, for those bike engines its rising after 5280 and keeps going up until 12500ish.

There is nothing to say you can't have a (very) high revving engine that's street usable but its all down to available gearing which is very limited in the case of gt40 suitable transaxles. I'm used to bikes which rev to 14.5k and it's not a problem but you have to keep the revs in the 10-14.5k range, arguably if you can make the same torque at 2-6.5 instead you have far less revs wasted and its easier but you'll have a lower top speed.
You also have the issue with a revy engine of when you are 'pootling' if you want to 'go' you need to change down 2,3 maybe even 4 gears to get back into the power/torque.

 

[Dave Wharran]

Alive and well guys. I visit the site daily and chime in when I have something relevant to add. The ERA and Cleveland are doing well. Just waiting for the roads here to clear up from the gravel they dump on them in bad weather.

The Cleveland engine dwarfs a 302 in physical size. It fits in the GT40 more like a big block then a small block. The angle of the exhaust headers off the heads are more like a big block. When ERA made the monocoque, they notched it for header clearance as they do for the big block.

The main bearings on the Cleveland are actually smaller than the Windsor engines. 2.75" for the Cleveland vs 3.00" for the Windsor.

I am currently running cast iron 2V open chamber heads at 10.2:1 compression. EFI with independent runner induction. It makes around 420 HP and and 420 lb-ft torque. Torque is 310 lb-ft at 3000 rpm. As Doug has mentioned, it is a hoot to drive on the street. The ZF has standard Pantera ratios with a 4.22 final ratio. Rev limiter is set at 6200 rpm. I use stock rods (ARP bolts, polished beams), plus the cam is a hydraulic roller and is all in and dropping off at 6200. Note in the attached photos, the distributor has been cut off and is only used to drive the oil pump. Ignition is via magnets in the aluminum flywheel. No distributor plus an electric water pump reduces somewhat the space the engine needs at the firewall. You'll notice in the attached pics that I did have a mechanical water pump on the engine, but it was removed in favor of the electric pump just after the engine went in the car.

It is as happy cruising as it is being driven more robustly. Once moving, put it in 5th gear and very rarely take it out if all you want to do is cruise around. It will idle through town at 35mph in 5th (foot off the throttle).
Want to spice it up a bit, stay in the 4000-6000 rpm band. Maybe not what you want in a competition car, but for my use it isn't meant to be a competition car. It is plenty healthy and thrilling for the street.

Ron mentions Tod Buttermore and an alloy block. Tod started a quest a few years ago to cast new aluminum and iron Cleveland blocks. As you would suspect, it is an ambitious project for an individual. Tod has had his share of setbacks but at the moment has his own CNC machines set up to do the rough machining on the new blocks, and is currently setting up his own aluminum casting operation. He has several alloy blocks that have been finished, tested, etc. Tod's has redesigned the oiling system in his block to be a priority flow fixing the deficiencies and problems of the original block. It is basically a stronger version of the stock block with all the problems of the stock block fixed....and is being made in alloy.
Tod is not a Dart or commercial enterprise. He is a one man show, so production numbers will be low. Tod however is still moving forward.
I have had a deposit on an alloy block since Tod started his quest.
I'm not in a great hurry and will wait till Tod gets to me. Heck, I waited 3 years for the GT40 so.......the stock cast iron block is doing fine at the moment.

McKeown Motorsport Engineering, Inc. has also recently announced a new Cleveland block in either aluminum or cast iron. I know nothing about it other than the announcement. For my time frame and budget, and because I chose to purchase a block from Tod, I have chosen to stick with Tod. I have no interest in the McKeown endeavor but it may be right for others.

I purchased a new set of AFD aluminum heads a few years ago for the engine. They are patiently waiting in their box until the alloy block is available. They are a 2V varitey with the intake and exhaust ports located as per the original cast iron heads. I'm not too keen or making another stainless exhaust system or purchasing another new intake. Besides, I am not going to aluminum for a HP increase (although there probably will be some with the redesigned ports and increased flow of the new heads), I'm trying to reduce weight by getting rid of an all cast iron engine and replacing it with an all aluminum. Any HP increase is just a bonus.

Aus Ford Parts - Aussie 351 Cleveland Specialists
Airflow Dynamics Performance 351 Cleveland Cylinder Heads

Finding parts, performance or otherwise, is tougher for the Cleveland. They are out there if you look for them, but not as plentiful as the Windsor based parts. Australia continued to make Clevelands well after the US stopped, so as with the AFD heads (and CHI heads), Redline manifolds, Yella Terra rockers, etc., Australia is a good source for Cleveland parts.

Would I do a Cleveland again? Absolutely. It is a sweet running engine and it looks great. Plus, I like having something a bit different.

Dave

 

[Roger]

There will always be clevleand fans out there. Common sense if your budget allows is a winsdsor block with cant valve heads. There are plenty of good used D3 aluminum heads out there or Some of the locally made heads will easily make the power you want on a 347 bottom end.
Cleveland blocks in Australia tend to have thin bores and don't like being bored past .020"

 

[colin artus]

Just to make things clear, it is 5252 rpm at which bhp and torque have the same numerical value. This is fixed and does not change. If a dyno graph seems to give a different rpm number it is because it has been poorly plotted.

 

[Doug S.]

Alive and well guys. I visit the site daily and chime in when I have something relevant to add. The ERA and Cleveland are doing well. Just waiting for the roads here to clear up from the gravel they dump on them in bad weather.

Dave, GREAT to see you posting again....and those photos are some I have never seen.

If you photodocumented your build, how about doing a build thread? I suggested that to someone else a while ago, but they weren't doing a build, just helping a friend, so the thread had little info. I would love to see how an ERA arrives from the factory, as well as how easy it is to put one together!

Of all the cars here on the forum, yours is my fave. I can hardly wait until you get that alloy block and the AFD heads (my choice, too...I probably visit the Aussie Ford Parts website once a week to drool!) put together. I bet you'll see a huge power increase!

Cheers, amigo....

Doug

 

[Doug S.]

Cleveland blocks in Australia tend to have thin bores and don't like being bored past .020"

We have issues with overbores on U.S. Clevelands, too. I spoke with an engine builder a while ago, wanted to overbore my seasoned C block only +.010", but he said the selection of pistons available under +.030" is limited. He suggested only one overbore, at +.030", and even at that suggested that a sonic-test of the engine's cylinder walls would be a good idea.

Just to make things clear, it is 5252 rpm at which bhp and torque have the same numerical value. This is fixed and does not change. If a dyno graph seems to give a different rpm number it is because it has been poorly plotted.

Thanks for the correction, Colin. I knew it was somewhere around 5200, just focused on 5280 b/c that is the number of feet in a mile (no rational reason for doing so, just a shot in the dark!!).


I knew where-ever torque and hp crossed on the graph was a fixed value...just focused on the wrong issue when I replied to David's post.

Cheers!

Doug

 

[George]

So is a Dart block (where it is made), based of a Windsor?

Is that a cleveland in the back of that GT40 Dave? Wow it looks good.

Well, for all you Ford guys, I came from a Dodge background and the revered engine was the Hemi. That was the engine to have, the golden prize so to speak. What in Ford world gives that sense of ownership as does a Hemi in a Dodge?

Lastly I guess, if we are talking about 500hp and 500ft/lbs torque (or as close as possible, more/less), does the fact its a Cleveland, Windsor, Alloy Dart (windsor?), Clevor, even Big Block 427ci etc make ANY difference at all, or not because speed/acceleration and so forth is based off the power/torque and not the name of the motor? I mean, 500hp I can get out of a cleveland, no problem, out of a Dart, no problem, out of a windsor, no problem, Big Block, no problem, so by going one over the other, what on earth would actually change? The power curve and thus 1 of them though have the same 'numbers' will be the better performer or what?

 

[Doug S.]

Dart is a company that makes engine blocks for more than just Fords....but they DO make a Ford Windsor block in both deck heights. AFAIK the only size Windsor used in the original GT40s was the 8.2" deck height block in the MkI's. When the MkII's came about they switched to the 427CID FE engine (332/352/390/427/428), yet another "thin-wall" casting, but physically much larger. Not long after that Enzo Ferarri got the ruling organization to limit engine displacement and then the MKII was out of the picture, so the MKI's came back.

Here is a link to Dart's Ford offerings (note that they offer Chevy and Honda blocks, too):

Ford Small Blocks - Engine Blocks

Ford's equivalent to the Dodge Hemi is the FE based 427SOHC...stands for "Single Overhead Cam". Not surprisingly, IIRC the combustion chamber was hemispherical.......

Here's a photo...every bit as distinctive as a Mopar 426 Hemi:

Redirect Notice

Having showed you that, though, I think I might oughta mention that the number that causes us Fordophiles to drool is 427....if you have a vintage Ford with a factory "R" code 427FE, you have the holy grail of Ford engines, whether it is a SOHC or not (although, it should come as no surprise to you that my favorite Ford engine is the Boss 302!!). Recently engine builders have started stroking and boring the 351W block to create 427CID, a good engine, but there are those who will settle for nothing less than a true FE427 anyway.

HP is HP, torque is torque. All those engines you mention are capable of being built to the power level you mention. Sure, each series has its advantages in one area or the other, as we discussed when reviewing the Clevor combination. Certain engines are renowned for being good producers of torque, others for being good producers at high RPMs, that sort of thing.....but, bottom line is that the size of the rotating assembly can limit RPM's (that's why the Honda 4 cylinders can make so many RPM's and such high HP numbers at those high RPMs....it can rev easily!).

So....power production is out of the picture, all your target engines are capable of the levels you want. What's next? I'd suggest that you look for something that might be historically correct, which leaves you with the 8.2" deck height, which is a good thing b/c a 351W block can be a tight fit in these small engine compartments.

I think you're getting the idea that building one of these things is an intensely personal issue, down to the grade of bolts that are used. Keep up your research, you'll get there someday!

Cheers!

Doug