Climate change

Where does OBOWMA get off pledging $10 billion a year on an unproven science bill that hasn't even been passed by the senate? Seems fitting that he is doing this in the middle of a blizzard. How are you people in the US enjoying this unseasonably warm weather? Freezing your ass off in the north and a huge snow storm in the east. We had record colds last winter, and this year is to be more of the same.
1500 people at this conference, all arrived by jet, hell pelosi and friends even flew over. Can you imagine the "carbon footprint"? Being that this is about global warming, what do you guys think about teleconferencing? Nah, let's take our own planes! Wish I had some taxpayers and a jet!
 

Charlie Farley

Supporter
Inconvenient Facts for some of us:

It was so hot during the 600 year long 'Roman' warming, that grapes were grown in Britain as far north as Hadrian's Wall. Sea levels did not rise and Polar ice did not vanish.Some alpine glaciers disappeared, only to reappear later.The cold Dark Ages followed: starvation,rampant disease and massive depopulation occured.
A 400 year warm period followed. The Vikings grew barley and wheat and raised cattle and sheep in parts of Greenland. During this 'medieval warming' there was so much excess wealth generated from generations of reliable harvests that the great monasteries, cathedrals and universities were built.
Yet sea levels did not rise and the ice sheets were not lost.And, significantly, humans could not have driven the Roman and Medieval warmings by carbon dioxide emissions, as there was no industry.
The Little Ice Age followed. There was famine, disease and depopulation.
Ice fairs were held on the Thames river up until the 1820's.
The Little ice age ended in 1850. It is no wonder that temperatures have increased in the past 150 years - this is what happens after a cold period.
The tmperature increase was not even. There was warming from 1860 to 1880, cooling from 1880 to 1910, warming from 1910 to 1940, cooling from 1940 to 1976, warming from 1976 to 1998 and now cooling from 1998.
Each warming period was a t the same rate. It was only during the warming period from 1976 to 1998 that carbon dioxide increased in parallel with temperature, all other modern warmings and coolings show no felationship to carbon dioxide.
Why is this story contrary to what we hear ? Because sensationalism is much more lucrative. A climatic catastrophe was provided for an anxious public by scientists who had everything to gain by frightening us.Its blind fundamentalism, unrelated to scientific facts. Politicians build new bureaucracies and pose as environmental saviours without having to face the consequences of their actions.Heads must roll. Meanwhile, the planet will do what it has always done : change!

Extract from ' Global Warming - The Missing Science '.
Author : Ian Plimer, Professor of Geology at the University of Adelaide.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I'm going to have to disagree with you guys on this one, as follows: I have a friend named Mimi Gerstell, who is an astrophysicist and climate scientist who works on climate modeling. Within the last year, I asked her about this issue (whether there is an increase in average global temperature and what's causing it, and if there is, what can be done about it) Her answer was interesting (keep in mind that this is someone who actually DOES this research and understands the modeling involved and has written some of it herself).
Dr Gerstell said that in her opinion, global warming IS occurring, and that the rate and extent of it are too high to explain by cyclic variation. She feels that there isn't any question that it is occurring as a side effect of civilization. She also feels that the extent of it is so formidable that it doesn't matter what we do- the change will occur no matter what, and that the Earth is going to get warmer. Period. It just remains to see what consequences that will turn out to have.

The interesting part of this is that Mimi is VERY politically conservative- she isn't a treehugger, she's certainly not a liberal, and she's a strong believer in free enterprise. She doesn't have an economic stake in this- she's financially independent and supports herself by her investments, which have nothing at all to do with climate change science, etc etc. She's been on the faculty at Cal Tech, MIT, and (I think) Princeton.

So if you want an objective opinion that isn't tied to any economic agenda, there it is. What we do about it is up to us, I suppose; her opinion is that there isn't much to do except watch it all happen, which she's doing.

And, for what it's worth, I agree that there's a substantial industry in both hysteria and prevention that's grown up around this. But (and this is where I don't agree with my friend Mimi) I think the problem IS worth doing something about. Climate change isn't the only negative effect of using a lot of fossil fuel up, and I think regardless of the effect on climate change, we ought to be weaning ourselves away from fossil fuel.

And I would be the first to admit that the GT40 is probably the least fuel efficient vehicle that ever rolled. As a collectible, though, it won't get driven a lot. That's my defense.
 
MIT’s Richard Lindzen is a renown climate scientist, he says global warming is a hoax created to make money and redistribute wealth. There are another 1500 scientist in the US that think the same way. I guess it's all in who you believe. I believe them. Lindzen believes that it is a natural climate cycle, and in studying all the pro global warming charts, he says that they are made with faulty info to convince gullible people. What do you think they were doing at Anglia University? I sure as hell wouln't believe a word that came out of Gore's mouth. His carbon footprint must be the size of Texas.
It's a redistribution of wealth, the US pledging $10 billion a year, that we don't have, for a bill that has not passed yet, to some 3rd world countries in Africa and the rest of the world. Socialism at it's finest! That works out to about $30 a year for every man, women, and child in the US. But it's just a start, better get used to hanging on to your ankles!
 
Inconvenient Facts for some of us:

It was so hot during the 600 year long 'Roman' warming, that grapes were grown in Britain as far north as Hadrian's Wall. Sea levels did not rise and Polar ice did not vanish.Some alpine glaciers disappeared, only to reappear later.The cold Dark Ages followed: starvation,rampant disease and massive depopulation occured.
A 400 year warm period followed. The Vikings grew barley and wheat and raised cattle and sheep in parts of Greenland. During this 'medieval warming' there was so much excess wealth generated from generations of reliable harvests that the great monasteries, cathedrals and universities were built.
Yet sea levels did not rise and the ice sheets were not lost.And, significantly, humans could not have driven the Roman and Medieval warmings by carbon dioxide emissions, as there was no industry.
The Little Ice Age followed. There was famine, disease and depopulation.
Ice fairs were held on the Thames river up until the 1820's.
The Little ice age ended in 1850. It is no wonder that temperatures have increased in the past 150 years - this is what happens after a cold period.
The tmperature increase was not even. There was warming from 1860 to 1880, cooling from 1880 to 1910, warming from 1910 to 1940, cooling from 1940 to 1976, warming from 1976 to 1998 and now cooling from 1998.
Each warming period was a t the same rate. It was only during the warming period from 1976 to 1998 that carbon dioxide increased in parallel with temperature, all other modern warmings and coolings show no felationship to carbon dioxide.
Why is this story contrary to what we hear ? Because sensationalism is much more lucrative. A climatic catastrophe was provided for an anxious public by scientists who had everything to gain by frightening us.Its blind fundamentalism, unrelated to scientific facts. Politicians build new bureaucracies and pose as environmental saviours without having to face the consequences of their actions.Heads must roll. Meanwhile, the planet will do what it has always done : change!

Extract from ' Global Warming - The Missing Science '.
Author : Ian Plimer, Professor of Geology at the University of Adelaide.

For some unknown reason, global warming believers can't get this concept into their head. It's been cold before and will be again, it's been warm before and will be again! All they see is melting ice and the end of the world! There were record colds in last winter and this winter is looking the same. Polar bears are NOT and endangered species. Look on Wildlife and Fisheries endangered species, there three ways to list. E= endangered T=threatened and R=recovering. Polar bears are on the T list and have been for a long time because of their proximity to man. They everywhere in Alaskan towns and outlying areas. They are not falling out of the sky or forlornly floating south on iceburgs. There are lots of seals and other animals. The pole will freeze over again, but will the governments say OOOPS, and stop draining our money once it is flowing? I think not. This is not something to be rushed into!
 

Charlie Farley

Supporter
Al,
I hear this 'Carbon Credits' scam, will be worth more than the entire market for oil by 2025, or was it 2020 ?
Anyway, its just another way for the likes of Merril Lynch et al to skin us again.
 
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Al, Don't worry about Merrill Lynch. They aren't even in the picture. If you want to see what is going on, just Google "Al Gore carbon credits" and you will get many many hits from the lunatic to the serious. All about Mr. Gore and how he with his buddies(Peter Knight former Chief of Staff,Hank Paulson, Secretary of the Treasury and CEO of Goldman Sach, and others) set up GIM(Generation investment Management). GIM deals in the credits that are traded on the CCX (Chicago Climate Exchange)and CNC(Carbon Neutral Company in Great Britian). They take investments from large “green supporting” companies or other generous “green” investors. Then GIM returns the favor by reinvesting in “green technology” for the same large companies. Goldman Sachs purchased 10% of CCX which happens to hold 50% of CNC......Does anyone see a trend here??? It is setup for just the big boys and you and I have no part in it. He stands to be an instant Billionaire when Cap and Trade is passed.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Yep, beware the prophet who stands to make a profit.
This was posted by Lucas on another thread, if you missed it it is worth watching. Monckton names so called scientists and calls them crooks, liars and frauds.
Hoping to get sued to get a court ruling methinks. It is in English.


Het Vrije Volk
 
Pete,
Any time you get a web page in a foreign language(one you can't translate), and you have a P C, and Google tool bar at the top, it will "usually" offer to translate it for you to any language you want. Also there is a continue button on the right of the tool bar that offers more options like "auto fill" for forms. It also has a translate button there as well. It is kind of neat cause you can then see the nature of the publication(kook to serious).

Bill
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Here we go again, its a religion not a science!

UN report on glaciers melting is based on 'speculation'

An official prediction by the United Nations that the Himalayan glaciers will melt by 2035 may be withdrawn after it was found to be based on speculation rather than scientific evidence.



<!-- Make sure there is no whitespoace at the end of the bline -->By Richard Alleyne, Science Correspondent
Published: 3:00PM GMT 17 Jan 2010


Two years ago, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) made the claim which it said was based on detailed research into the impact of global warming.
But the IPCC have since admitted it was based on a report written in a science journal and even the scientist who was the subject of the original story admits it was not based on fact.

The article, in the New Scientist, was not even based on a research paper - it evolved from a short telephone interview with the academic.
Dr Syed Hasnain, an Indian scientist then based at Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi, said that the claim was "speculation" and was not supported by any formal research.
Professor Murari Lal, who oversaw the chapter on glaciers in the IPCC report, said he would recommend that the claim about glaciers be dropped.
The IPCC's reliance on Hasnain's 1999 interview has been highlighted by Fred Pearce, the journalist who carried out the original interview.
Mr Pearce said he rang Hasnain in India in 1999 after spotting his claims in an Indian magazine.
He said that Dr Hasnain made the assertion about 2035 but admitted it was campaigning report rather than an academic paper that was reviewed by a panel of expert peers.
Despite this it rapidly became a key source for the IPCC when Prof Lal and his colleagues came to write the section on the Himalayas.
When finally published, the IPCC report did give its source as the WWF study but went further, suggesting the likelihood of the glaciers melting was "very high".
The IPCC defines this as having a probability of greater than 90 per cent.
The report read: "Glaciers in the Himalaya are receding faster than in any other part of the world and, if the present rate continues, the likelihood of them disappearing by the year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the Earth keeps warming at the current rate."
However, glaciologists find such figures inherently ludicrous, pointing out that most Himalayan glaciers are hundreds of feet thick and could not melt fast enough to vanish by 2035 unless there was a huge global temperature rise. The maximum rate of decline in thickness seen in glaciers at the moment is two to three feet a year and most are far lower.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Yep, IPCC made a mistake on that. Science still says they are melting faster than expected though:

Himalaya glaciers melting much faster - Discovery.com- msnbc.com

Yes and in a few thousand years or so they will grow faster than expected.

The Ipcc is totally flawed and pushing what is now at not so hidden agenda. All you have to do is read the previous posts in this thread to see that this whole global warming, climate change issue is total chicanery pushed by dishonest scientists and Al Gore all in the pursuit of $$$$$.

The great pity of that is that it takes peoples focus away from the real problems of world pollution.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
I've read this thread, and threads like these in a lot of places. They don't have much science to them.

I agree we aren't 100% sure as to the causes for what we are seeing, but there is a whole lot of data-supported, peer reviewed science out there that says something is going on, and a smaller portion that says we are the cause.

Whether you like Al Gore, or consider that science "chicanery," is irrelevant, really, to the fact that "is." And so the question becomes what, if anything do (or can we) do about it. Not how much we hate Al Gore.

What's really a shame is that this whole discussion has become politicized and the real science (on both sides) buried, with complete irrationality in the "pro" camp and the "anti" camp.
 
Jeff, there are many perspectives on the subject. However I have seen a great deal of evidence that the climate change people have falsified or distorted a lot of important data. It is easy to skew a graph or make it say what you want just by choosing different end points. Then there is the whole East Anglia flap. Precious little of the negative points about possible climate change make it into the normal daily news media. Most people agree that weather changes, the reasons sighted for it in the daily press seem highly suspect! If you want science just go to the many references that have been mentioned on this forum. There is plenty of info out there!
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
From Miranda Devine, Sydney Morning Herald.


The visit to Australia this week of Lord Christopher Monckton - the world's most effective global warming sceptic - couldn't have been better timed. Hot on the heels of the "Climategate" email leak, which called into question the "tricks" used to sex up the case for the war against global warming, have come back-to-back revelations tarnishing the reputation of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
First domino down last week was the claim in the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report in 2007 - the one that won it a Nobel Prize - that the Himalayan glaciers would melt by 2035. As one of the most dire climate change outcomes, this claim received enormous publicity and was often cited by politicians.
But, it turns out, the evidence was based not on credible peer-review science, but on an unsubstantiated report by the environmental group World Wildlife Fund for Nature.
<!-- cT-imageLandscape -->
420-2810-aragon-420x0.jpg
Illustration: Edd Aragon

It stemmed from a 1999 beat-up in the popular journal New Scientist that featured an interview with an obscure Indian scientist, Syed Hasnain, who has since admitted his glacier prediction was "speculation".
Hasnain now works for the Energy and Resources Institute in Delhi, whose director-general, Rajendra Pachauri, is also head of the IPCC.
Even murkier is the fact the glacier furphy reportedly netted lots of grant money for the institute. "My job is not to point out mistakes,'' Hasnain told The Times of London. ''And you know the might of the IPCC. What about all the other glaciologists around the world who did not speak out?"
Yes, what about them indeed. Are scientists just cowardly?
The mendacity of the IPCC came to light when the Indian Government fact-checked its glacier claim. Belated scrutiny of the 2007 report has uncovered other bogus claims, and at least 16 WWF references.
The next domino to fall was the IPCC's assertion that global warming was to blame for weather disasters such as hurricane and drought. The Sunday Times in London reported this was based on an unpublished scientific paper that had not been peer reviewed, and that, when it was published in 2008, had found no link.
The latest revelation is that an IPCC claim about the Amazon rainforest was also drawn from a WWF report. The IPCC says it is simply a "human mistake" to parrot WWF press releases, as if they are credible science and not green propaganda, and no one bats an eyelid.
Well, except Monckton, who has been batting his considerable eyelids (large because of a thyroid ailment) for years over bogus claims. He even succeeded in having a table in the 2007 report corrected after he pointed out that it overstated sea-level rises tenfold.
Having been singled out for vilification last year by Kevin Rudd in an extraordinary speech, Monckton finds the times suit him well.
Rudd's vehemence attracted the attention of semi-retired engineer John Smeed, who splits his time between Lane Cove and Noosa. He and another engineer, Case Smit invited Monckton to Australia, footing the $100,000 bill for his eight-city tour from their own pockets, offset by donations.
I was invited to a small lunch for Monckton this week, hosted by Smeed and a Newcastle engineer, Jeff McCloy.
In person, Monckton is taller and more serious than he appears on screen. Being a mathematician he has a logical mind, as well as irrepressible self-confidence, which makes him a formidable opponent for climate alarmists.
Andy Pitman, a co-director of the University of NSW's Climate Change Research Centre, complained on ABC radio this week that climate sceptics are so "well funded, so well organised [and] have nothing else to do … They are doing a superb job at misinforming and miscommunicating the general public, State and Federal Government."
Huh? How can climate alarmists pitch themselves as the underdog when they have had on their side the full force of government (and opposition until lately), media (apart from a few individual holdouts) and big business?
Public opinion has changed as the credibility of the IPCC ebbs, the crippling cost of climate change measures becomes apparent and the array of rentseekers and phonies grows. Monckton is a man whose time has come because he owes nothing to anybody and he has the capacity to interpret the science to a public looking for answers.
As an adviser to Margaret Thatcher, he learnt that when you make policy about an issue which is outside your expertise, you must distill it down to one proposition. In this case, how much will a given increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere cause warming? The answer determines whether or not you spend trillions of taxpayer dollars "and wreck the economies of the West".
Monckton pored over scientific papers on climate sensitivity and concluded the IPCC exaggerated climate sensitivity to carbon dioxide at least sixfold, so we have time cautiously to decide whether or not to attempt to change global temperature.
In any case, he says, what if every nation agreed to cut emissions by 30 per cent in the next 10 years? The "warming forestalled would be 0.02 celsius degrees, at a cost of trillions. There's no point doing it."
The last refuge of alarmists is the precautionary principle, in which we "give the planet the benefit of the doubt". But Monckton says bad policy guided by the precautionary principle has already led to the death of millions of people as the transfer of farmland to grow biofuels meant less food, higher prices, food riots and starvation.
He cites the United Nations special rapporteur Jean Ziegler, who said growing biofuels instead of food when the poor were starving was a "crime against humanity".
Monckton says public opinion is "galloping" in his direction, which bodes ill for Rudd as he prepares to push through his emissions trading scheme next month.
 
It couldn't come at a better time. Thank GOD for a few level heads and the revealing of the scam from so-called envirenmentalists. I for one don't know if global warming is real or not or if the problem is caused by mankind. It seems to me that growing corn for fuel is a travesty when so many go hungry worldwide, not to mention the inefficiencies of that course of action with regards to water and energyexpense to produce a crop that uses more resources to bring to market than it produces in output.
Thanks for posting this Pete and keeping us abreast of the issue.
Garry
 
Garry,

Thanks for the post. I think the earth has so much unused land that could be used for growing more crops for both food and fuel, that I am miffed at why this isn't / cannot be done.

If one flies from California to Chicago, the states are barren, and could (from my perspective with some water drilling) be used to grow crops.

I trust there are wiser people here than I am.
 
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