Engine reco's......

[Cliff Beer]

So, I have a decent little Ford Racing 302 crate engine in my GT40....about 350/350 hp/tq, which is loads for me, particularly as it's hooked up to a lowly old wrecking yard 016. I had plans for building a semi-exotic flat crank SBF-based V8 to replace it with or, alternately, put into an old Indy car. After spending a fairly significant sum of money on the design and initial production work on the flat crank concept, and having that come to naught, I'm now moving onto considering a (slightly) more traditional engine configuration.

Specifically, I'm thinking something along the lines of the following, but would love to get some feedback.

• 331 stroker SBF,
• alloy block,
• Trick Flow heads,
• Carillo rods (if I can find them),
• 44 IDF webers,
• Mallory ignition,
• roller rockers,
• sport/modest cam,
• girdle

I'd like to be able to wind her up to about 6,000-6,500 rpm pretty reliably, with hopefully around 425/425 hp/tq at the flywheel. I like lightness as a concept for building performance, rather than just more hp/tq, hence the alloy block (save 50lbs??). I'm thinking a good engine builder could put that together for something like $12-14,000. Is that realistic?

Please let me know if I'm on crack here, or if there are obviously better choices.

One thought, just for a little experimentation: twin plugs. Has anybody ever experimented with higher compression (11:1?) and twin plug heads on a SBF?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ron Scarboro]

I've been pricing a number of sbf motors lately. I doubt you can get there with an aluminum block. Looking for a forged crank also? My guess would be $16-$22 based on the caché of builder.

 

[EGLITOM]

Cliff

Should be managable for may be 14 K USD (would talk to KCR).

But for the same cost you would get an custombuild LS3 including Drysump and around 500 HP.
I know I know its not a Ford, but i think what i would do next time. I spend around 13.000 USD on my engine. 331, Bossblock, VIctor Jr Heads, SUper Victor intake , specd to be able to turn up to 7800 RPM; It will do that and we had around 510 HP @7000 RPM ( more to go as it turns higher RPM´s). But will it last, i´m not quite sure.

If you want lightness and performance for money, i think LS´s are the better option.

TOM

 

[Jac Mac]

Get the whole forged crank. rod. piston (CP or JE)assy from scat as a balanced ready to go kit, use the dart alloy 4.125 bore block just for the extra 15 odd extra cubes at the same $, CNC AFR 185 heads, MSD ign, Yella Terra paired shaft rockers, Decent Holley, [ found one that really works-out of the box & done in the USA- bloody amazing] Victor Manifold, choose your cam to your needs- be honest here... what you have just saved on the Webers- Carrillos- & Girdle could go toward a Dry Sump & the price diff on the Alloy Block... Forget the twin plug pipe dream- can of worms looking for somewhere to do its business

 

[Ian Anderson]

How about an Edelbrock built one?
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/crate_engines/pdf/crate_cat.pdf

Ian

 

[Ron Earp]

What's up with the twin plugs? That sounds like it is some Porsche lore on "high" compression flat sixes, leave that in Porsche land. Ditto the Carillo rods, there are just as good a units out there with kits and so on. Heads and induction are up to you but I think there are better bangs for the buck with AFR. Give Keith Craft a call and I'm sure they can build you what you need.

Oh, just read what Jac Mac said - do what Jac Mac says and save money and make more power.

Are you planning on a transaxle change?

 

[Jac Mac]

Are you planning on a transaxle change?

If he was not he will...............

 

[Cliff Beer]

Thanks gents, good info.

Yup, the twin plug thing is probably a waste of time. My logic is this....the small displacement guys (porsche, ferrari, etc.) are always looking for engine tweaks to make more power (such as twin plugs and higher compression) because they're basically trying to make up for less displacement with better flow and bigger bang. And, indeed, some of these tricks do add a fair bit of hp (not so much tq however). So, my thought is "why not add some of these tricks to a large displacement engine?" In other words, if these tricks make meaningful power delta on a small displacement engine then shouldn't that be increased proportionally on a large displacement engine? Of course, individual results may vary....

The carillo rods idea is only mentioned because I have been very impressed with their products in the past and I've noticed that it looks like some of the NASCAR teams are using them and sell used sets in good shape on ebay for dirt cheap. These would need maching to fit no doubt but it appears as if the basic rod length on centers is available. If there's better sets for reasonable cost then that's the way to go obviously.

By consensus, AFRs seem to be the best heads although priced a little higher.

Can anyone recommend a SBF all-alloy block?

Thank you.

 

[Ron Scarboro]

Does "all-alloy"= aluminum? If so, then IMHO the best is a Dart but it is a budget blower.

Small Block Ford Billet Blocks - Billet Blocks - Engine Blocks

 

[Jim Craik]

Cliff,

Approximately how much lighter would a SBF in aluminum be?

I went with the Roush 302 based 342R crate motor. It has aluminum heads, and a Holly 4 barrel, 450 hp, 425 lbs. With a warranty for under $10,000US. I now have over 20,000 miles on it and think it is great.

It sounds fabulous and does not block any rearward vision.

 

[Howard Jones]

351 type 408 stroked, edelbrock alum heads, 10 to 1 CR, hyd roller cam and a 750 Holley. This will net you way less than $14K. If you do it yourself maybe half of that. It's an easy 1hp per inch or more and will last the life of the car. I would guess it would be right at 425-450hp depending on cam. Don't go nuts on the cam. 520ish lift and about 280 duration ought to do it. Call Comp Cams. Forget the Alum block, it's only about 80 lbs lighter. Put some of the 2000 bucks you just saved into brakes.

Now spend the rest of 7K you saved on the GB. Don't forget the limmited slip. Trust me, you will be happier than with a radical cam, high CR 300ish inch motor that will never run right on the road.

A lot of people follow this advice on their second motor.

 

[Bill Musarra]

Cliff,
I am no expert, but if considering the AFRs go one step higher and go with the 205s. If you go back and research the early Engine Masters series I believe in Popular Hot Roding you will see a vast difference in performance. They also did a great challenge series on head performance. You won't need vacuum for anything except tuning. Be sure to do the easy stuff like port matching the intake to the heads. Easy and cheap way to get it to breathe. If you have the bucks CNC them, but a good grinding bit will do wonders.

Bill

 

[Cliff Beer]

Thank you gents, much appreciated. That's good advice.

Ron, yes, alloy = aluminum. Thanks, the Dart blocks look beautiful, but holy smokes, expensive.

Jim, yes, definitely, I like the roush motors and that sounds about right. My little 302 I have in there now (Ford Racing crate engine with 8,500 miles) looks like it's crapping out, so, probably time for a replacement/upgrade.

Howard, good advice, yes, I'd rather have a nice tractable street engine with a bit more displacement, than a high revver with peaky hp/tq. Sounds like a good one.

Bill, thanks, will look at the AFR 205s. And, yup, planning on doing some porting of the intake tract - have done this before on alfas and porsches so I imagine I can do it on an SBF with some finesse.

Thank you All.

 

[Gord Zonailo]

Cliff,

Dart also make a cast aluminum block which is less expensive than the billet block. About $4,000 range. The Dart cast iron block is about $2,200 to $2,400 range. Fontana makes an excellent Clevor style aluminum block with the best features of Cleveland and Windsor blocks. It has been widely used in racing with very good results. It is in the Dart cast aluminum price range or slightly more. Ford Racing has aluminum blocks also. Another source is World Products. They look good on paper but their casting quality supposedlycan be very poor. I have never used one of their blocks so cannot speak from direct experience.

I have one of the Ford Racing -Raceparts Distributors Inc, 351 W deck height, SVO mains, 4.125" bore aluminum blocks to build a 427 stroker engine with. On a 351 based engine the aluminum block saves about 90 lbs - for what it's worth. Since I mainly going to be tracking my car I wanted to go with the lighter weight, just because you can!

Gord

 

[Doug S.]

Fontana makes an excellent Clevor style aluminum block with the best features of Cleveland and Windsor blocks. It has been widely used in racing with very good results.

Gord, would you mind posting a link to the Fontana Clevor style block? I checked Fontana's site and only found their 4 cylinder offerings, nothing in a V-8. Looks like they are into midget racing these days :huh:

Thanks! I'm a big fan of the Clevor design, hoping you can provide some information.

Cheers from Doug!!

 

[Gord Zonailo]

Hi Doug,

It seems that Joe Fontana retired last year and sold the tooling for the Clevor and Windsor blocks to Shelby.

There is an excellent thread on the Fontana's in GT40s.com, here:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=bottom><TD></TD><TD width="100%">GT40s.com > GT40 Technical Forums > GT40 Tech - Engines/Induction/Exhaust </TD></TR><TR><TD class=navbar style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; PADDING-TOP: 1px" colSpan=3> Fontana information

See the post #3 by Kelly. It is an excellent source of info - if not a block! Try Shelby.

Gord


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Jac Mac]

I have a feeling Doug's not going to be very happy about that bit of news.....

 

[Doug S.]

I have a feeling Doug's not going to be very happy about that bit of news.....

Jac, you must have ESP!!!!

Either that, or you've read my rants about ol' Shel on the various automotive forums....he doesn't deserve a penny of my money.....I'll make do with a block by a different manufacturer. I was recently shopping for a product for my Cobra replica and found it ONLY at Shelby's website :furious: . I can do without it.

Cheers to you, Jac Mac.....even when you're not giving mechanical advice, you're right :thumbsup:

Doug