FIA announcement

Ian Clark

Supporter
Hi All,

This is a good thing for everyone involved in Vintage Racing. The spectators will see bigger fields, seriously expensive cars need not be flogged, competitors that want to race their real car can legitimately race a copy, the value of original cars will not be affected and an entire specialty car industry segment will enjoy more sales of parts and services for these new racers. Correct?

I do think it would be "fair" to have different points and classes for replica racers and please remmber, racing is a very expensive sport or hobby.

I believe the FIA position on this is a signal to other organizations around the world to recognize "accurate" replicas. This is a good thing, let's hope SVRA, VRAC etc pick up the ball and run with it.

As for "Accurate", well it must be visually and dimensionaly correct on the outside, make the suspension layout and drivetrain as close a possible but not necessarily identical to the original and away you go.

Also take a look at FIA or other organizing bodies rules for safety and scrutineering to race your replica. Once your in that deep you'll have a very robust and safe car, again... a good thing.

I seriously doubt that any GT40 replica short of a professionally sorted monocoque car could run with an original car, both cars driven in anger.

There's also the little matter about having a competition liscence, that will make us weekend warriors much safer on the track or road.

However, it's all about the show, not beating a multi million dollar collector car with your home built kit car. Being struck by lightning is more likely to happen.

PS: words like "fair, legal, correct, & accurate" are oximorons when applied to racing:)
 

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I think it is important to remember that this is the FIA. Copies or clones are different from silhouette cars. I am sure they will scrutinize theses cars with a fine tooth comb. And the cost to reproduce an exact replica is not cheap. Sometimes more expensive than the original is worth. But, when race fans walk throught the pits, they want to see the real thing. Some of the most interesting things about an old race car is the way in which was built. You must retain all of the car, not just the look. I believe this is the direction the FIA will take. If you can't tell the difference, run it.
BTW, can anyone tell me what they will be racing in vintage events 30 years from now? The SCCA has turned away from any type of innovation on a constructor level. One design is the flavor of the day and the production stuff is the same stuff that you can see at a vintage event. IMHO what they need is a place to run what you brung. Any engine. Front engine and rear engine classes. A constructors class, if you will. Just a thought.
Bill
 
The GT40 is one of the best known and most researched race cars of our time, yet we on this forum cannot always agree on what is original. How then will some poor official at a race track armed only with a certificate from the owner decide how original a car is? How will this official decide whether a particular one-off X built racer of the Y era is correct down to the last cam grind and suspension point location? Are we discussing something that is even remotely achievable?

Somebody suggested that it is possible to build an exact replica. I disagree. It is only possible to build a car exactly to some specification that some people may agree is indicative of the original. There is a difference.

Devise some basic and easy to establish rules about what constitutes a replica, then allow the replicas to race openly. The result will be that owners of replicas won’t be encouraged to lie, and the owners of the originals won’t be encouraged to molest their cars just to catch the "cheats", and in doing so just muddy the waters further about the car’s true history.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I think Robert Ash at FAV in Georgia would tell you it is possible to determine what is original on a GT40 and what is not, so would Brian Angliss and Brian Wingfield, just to name a few. But race cars are always works in progress- in a sense, the continuous process of development of a race car is always going on, only interrupted by the races themselves (it's too bad all these actual races get in the way of the development and testing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) so where do you decree that something is 'finished' and how do you say that a vintage car is 'as raced' in the past? Here's an example- look at Bill Wonder's car #103, the oldest GT40 around. Right now it has a 4cam Indy engine in it. It was never raced originally with a 4cam engine it. Well, so what? If I knew that car was going to be at a race meeting and turn even ONE hot lap I would drop everything I was doing and get out there as fast as I could. I think vintage racing, like everything else, has gotten popular, so the pressure starts up and so do the disagreements. This is foolish in vintage racing- there aren't any real prizes, there's no money at stake, it's supposed to be for fun- so what's all the fuss about?
 
How about another angle.. a class Replica/Reproduction Historic that can run at FIA events alongside but not directly with genuine historic cars.
Surely this would allow us that want to race at such events.. with the necessary invitations or course, chance to race without putting anyones noses' out of joint, but compete legitimately and proudly, alongside though not within the same race as those that are willing, capable, and financially able to race their original historic vehicles.
I feel sure that crowds would attend to see increased fields of Type Historic cars at events, as much as to see the originals. We have been told on numerous occasions that our pressence(gtd 40's club) at race events has been a great draw leading to increased spectators and some organisers use images of us to promote their events...even if they are "just" replicas. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Well jools, if you want to get things going,how many people do you know that are crazy about model Ts? In the early 80's these cars were going for 20-30K. Now you can buy them for 5-10K for a really nice one. We, us 50 year old guys, are the market for the 60s and 70s cars. There may be a few of you younger guys out there that like these cars but the money is in the people that grew up with these cars. How long do you think they will retain there value? Especially the 7 figure cars. It is a question that I cannot answer, but, history has a habit of repeating itself. Supply and demand. I don't think the 20 year old guys watching the Audis at LeMans will be interested in a car their fathers watched 40 years ago. How can they relate to them? For me it's a little sad,but, I compensate by driving a Mitsu EVO. As I have intimated earlier, I think all of us should have a venue to race our cars if we want. The problem is that the sanctioning bodies feel differently. Historic racing is just that. So, unless you can build a car that cannot be distinguished from the original, you are out of luck. I really believe that there should be some kind of open class where anyone can race anything. That is the way roadracing started and that is the way it should be.
Bill
 
Jools,

I'm happy with the sprints organised by the GTD40 club, especially when you perfom 360 spins right in front of me! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

A replica series sounds like a good idea.
 

Malcolm

Supporter
Julian was using ideas from the Malcolm's Great Driving Tips Handbook,.... that is just being withdrawn from publication again! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I don't have a problem with full reproductions alongside originals, even allowing for period race day developments. What bugs me is that someone somewhere will make an improvement to give themselves an edge over the original/other cars that is not period defined. That is unbalancing what should be a level playing field. Also a reproduction may get more aggressive in manoeuvres where an original would perhaps take it easier to protect their investment. This FIA ruling comes into being and you get a two tier level of cars whether you like it or not. Therefore they must be differentiated by separate classes at least, but at least then they can run at the same time on the track. Which would be good.

A replica series? Already exists, ask GTA or read the last GTD 40 Club magazine, full details in there.
 
I've read all the above comments and varying opinions with great interest.

Never, never, ever in the field of human endeavour has there been such a minefield of conflicting interests, judgements and opinions. Hey, that's me speaking not Sir Winston Churchill!

Seriously, the whole issue of originals versus replicas is a veritable minefield. What's original and what's not. To fully understand the issue one must go back to the mindset of the people who were building the cars in the 1960s era, ie GT40s, Lola T70s, Ferrari P4s, various Porsche models, etc. The main aim was to build cars to win races and in many cases the cars were rough and with not much thought for creature comforts, ie GT40 roof line resting on your head, Porsche 917 with feet ahead of the front wheel centre line.

Driven and motivated by a competitive spirit and a need to win cars were constantly improved leading to the oft quoted saying that in a run of 100 and more racing sports cars built to qualify for homologation, 'Not one car was the same as the other.' This immediately poses the question of originality. With the recent acceptance by the FIA of 'original replicas' does a bewildered FIA scrutineer say, 'Hang on, the row of rivets there on your new replica are larger than those on chassis number 27 built in June, 1967.'Yeah but from chassis number 33, built in August, the rivets were increased in size and I copied those.' A minefield indeed. The last thing on anyone's mind was to build cars for future rules some 40 years down the line let alone the near impossibility of imagining being 64 when you are 24! Or that man would land on the moon!

Another problem with establishing rules today was that in those hectic competitive years accident damaged cars were often stripped and cannibalised with parts of other cars. What happens in the case of a car badly damaged in the 1960s and having parts and its chassis plate moved across to a new car. What happens when that wreck, supposedly a write off at the time, is taken out of mothballs and rebuilt now. Which car has the right to the original chassis number? This is plain circumstance, not foreseen by the owner of the car at the time and if two cars were to land up side by side at a show or race meeting with the same chassis numbers, as has been the case, it would have nothing to do with dishonesty or fraud. It's no doubt this scenario of which there are many hundreds of similar cases that's made the FIA say, what the hell, we just can't police this lot!

The plot thickens ever further. By authentic one would assume the coming new Superformance GT40 MK11 with monocoque 100% as per original. What would happen if another company were to produce an indentical monocoque but with the roof section still in fibreglass. Should a CAV or RF GT40 be excluded just because they have space frame chassis? After all they are visually identical to their monocoque cousins.Decisions, decisions!

There's an absolute irrefutable fact in all of this - a replica cannot and will never have the value of an original. Nor will it ever threaten the value IMHO. If some brilliant sculptor were to make a precise copy of the statue of Venus de Milo so be it but you'll always find the original in the Louvre in Paris. This is what I said to some owners of original cars who got twitchy about my push for replicas.

In some small way I might have had something to do with the new ruling. For the past five years or so I've been nagging David Piper and Co as well as some influential people in motor sport in the UK to have precise replicas accepted in the FIA registered historic classes. This was motivated by two reasons - one self serving and the other altruistic. Having been involved with the building of replica racing sports cars I saw this as a business opportunity. On the other hand I've lost count of the number of people in the 50s and 60s age group who tell me that they would love to race in classics in a GT40, a Lola T70, a P4, a 917, whatever, but stand a better chance of flying to Mars than be able to afford an original car. It would give me a great kick if I could make some of these guys realise a long cherished dream by delivering an affordable precise replica to them. Something that's motivated this dream is that they see Sir Stirling Moss (born September 17, 1929), Sir Jack Brabham ( April 2, 1926), Phil Hill (April 27, 1927), David Piper (December 2, 1930) and many others as fast as ever in their mid-70s. So a guy who's 55 says I've got 20 years to go! In theory at any rate!

You'll be surprised at how many approaches I've had from various people in the UK, the US and Germany
to build their replica racing sports cars in Cape Town. A German friend, who builds replica Porsche 910s, 908s and has about 70% of all the 904 bits, is threatening to move his whole operation to Cape Town. He charges FOUR times more for a car less engine and gearbox than we would charge. The reason is that thanks to a weak rand (not as weak as before) we can build cars at competitive prices. There's a misconception that we have cheap labour rates. Not true, Jimmy Price told me recently that his labour rate is about the same as in the US is dollar terms. It's all to do with currency.

Products are always driven by supply and demand and this is case with classic racing which has exploded in recent years all over the world to such an extent that in many cases events draw far more spectators than current formulae. Note also the current boredom and cynicism relating to F1 racing as previously mentioned on this forum. I'm quite convinced that this retro mood is largely psychological and driven by the fact that the word of the 1960s was perceived to be a happier and freer place than today's over regulated, computer driven world beset by increasing crime, lack of discipline and respect in many cases and worse still, international terrorism. Being negative, no, just realistic. However, on the positive side the modern world has much to offer - ATM banking, the Internet, cell phones, amazing medical and surgical procedures, safer cars, faster aircraft and much else besides. Dale Carnegie says be positive!

Last year's Le Mans drew 305 entries for the curtain raiser classic races before the main event and there were 2000 club cars in the car park. If you want to step back in time just go the Goodwood Revival Meeting. I was there in 2000 and last year, when thanks to this website I met up with Chris Melia, Brian Magee and Roy Snook. Goodwood is absolute MAGIC! In your line of vision at any time you'll see some of the world's most famous racing cars, including a row of seven original GT40s.. The side shows, Spitfires flying overhead, Laurel and Hardy driving around in a Model T, the period dress, all brilliant. Yeah, and you young guys don't know about suspender belts and stockings. Pity you missed out!

At a recent Revival meeting a replica Marilyn Monroe gave Sir Stirling Moss a big hug and a kiss for his birthday. Now you see that's my point, there can only be one original Marilyn Monroe and the replica can never have the same value! 'Let's have look, Marilyn's finger nails were longer than yours and your feet are bigger than hers were. Call the scrutineer!'

In conclusion I believe that the FIA's decision is the right one. It's a win-win situation. From a race organisers point of view fields would be larger, some older boys would have an opportunity to race, there would be a new supply of affordable parts for some original cars, spectators would see more cars from a magnificent era in action and for some it'll be an enjoyable business opportunity. Above all the owners of original cars wouldn't be threatened.

I rest my case!
Andre 40
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the 20 year old guys watching the Audis at LeMans will be interested in a car their fathers watched 40 years ago. How can they relate to them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as a footnote to this comment. It will be very interesting to see where historic racing is by the time these race cars become old. Whereas we might now be able to hop into a historic GT40 and drive it to within 99% of its life, the simple fact is that Joe Average cannot drive a modern class-one race car.

I had the (unfortunate) honour of watching a Formula 1 Ferrari of the turbo era smash itself into a concrete barrier at the Philip Island historics a few years ago. The race car was on its own on the track and running some demonstration laps. On the front straight while traveling in a straight line the driver decided to floor the pedal to give the spectators a thrill. The car immediately broke traction and spun on the spot careering straight into the concrete barrier that protects pit lane. The Ferrari sustained significant structural damage. Shortly after, I understood that the owner was struggling to find someone capable of repairing it. Even Ferrari didn't want to know about it.

The times, they are a-changin' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Andre. Welcome back. It's been nearly three weeks and talking such good common sense. Let the replicas race!!! Regards
 

Ian Clark

Supporter
Thank you Andre for reinforcing my comments ealier in this thread. There are major players in the racing community in the US that are working very closely with the FIA to make this all work.

Everybody wants to see more historically significant cars raced and more people want to go racing that are either not able or prepared to risk a rare collector car on the track.

So I truly hope it comes together.

By the way CAVs have monocoque chassis, for your information.

Did you ask your wife if Stirling slipped her the tongue? He sure did with my girfreind, but that was eighteen years ago!

Cheers
 
Hi All,

This is the type of precise copy of an original that would no doubt qualify under the new FIA ruling.

The Chevron B8 was built by a friend in Cape Town and is precise in every detail except for fabricated instead of cast magnesium rear uprights. This can easily be corrected.

I'm planning to enter into a joint venture deal with my friend to build the car. People who have driven the B8 in the past speak of 'phenomenal road holding'and one person described the car 'as very forgiving and therefore an ideal car for the novice driver who can later progress to the more powerful V8'.

With 2 litre BMW power, as per the originals, the new B8 would be competitively priced.

Best regards,
Andre 40
 
I missed a most important point. I've offered to build the B8 for Vin and Helen Malkie of Chevron Cars in Chesire.
 
I can't immagine why any one would want to race a car as valuable as an origional GT40, so it makes perfect sense to let replica's race in vintage races.

One side effect that this would have is that suspension points would get moved here and there and the replicas would slowly start beating the origionals, but the people driving the origionals could afford a replica to race, so the playing field just got level again, historic cars don't get banged up on the track and the racing is cheaper because the replica's are made of parts that are currently available. Every one wins, even the FIA, because the number of entrants and spectators is what pays for them.
 
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