Basically anything the rough size and shape of a GM LS/FAST intake will fit; anything taller will not fit without a custom cover. The problem is the rear is sloped, so you have more room at the front of the engine than the back of it, yet the front is basically smacked right up against the rear firewall so you have to feed it from the back of the engine, which really limits height.
Flat Plane Crank LS1
- Thread starter Troymx576
- Start date
Basically anything the rough size and shape of a GM LS/FAST intake will fit; anything taller will not fit without a custom cover. The problem is the rear is sloped, so you have more room at the front of the engine than the back of it, yet the front is basically smacked right up against the rear firewall so you have to feed it from the back of the engine, which really limits height.
So will this type fit? I was thinking of two throttle bodies on the end, but might have to do one larger in the middle and shape the front down a bit. This will all happen once I have the items, but I can start planning in my head.
This type can work, but the runners would need to be about 2" shorter and curve up to get the plenums where they need to be. I would think that would be too high so the first design might be best. But with this design I might be able to put the tb's on the sides if there is room there.
This type can work, but the runners would need to be about 2" shorter and curve up to get the plenums where they need to be. I would think that would be too high so the first design might be best. But with this design I might be able to put the tb's on the sides if there is room there.
Better make sure they've fixed the problem of the material not being able to handle the heating/cooling of the engine and thus cracking.
Yah. I really like them also, but at 4k is a bit much with everything else I just spent money on. Plus, if I make my own that fabrication is fun. Plus again I can make sure they fit in the SLC. And yet another plus is for my ego when showing the car off and saying I made the intake, flat plane crank and 618hp.
Btw. I redid the engine paremeters for the very small pistons, pins, side skirts and small race bearings. I was making more Hp, but I changed some intake design to gain a bit more mid range power so I am still at the 618hp range. I want 5.5-6" intake length. When I put in the stock intake it was like 100hp down above 7000.
Btw. I redid the engine paremeters for the very small pistons, pins, side skirts and small race bearings. I was making more Hp, but I changed some intake design to gain a bit more mid range power so I am still at the 618hp range. I want 5.5-6" intake length. When I put in the stock intake it was like 100hp down above 7000.
I just read the new road and track and it had the 3 king comparison with the zr1, f458 and mp12. This article sure has me thinking how my car would fair when done. Hmmm. Maybe, hmmmm, someday.
On one hand I sure hope 600+ Hp will do it, but then I have a g50/20 LSD box with 325x2 tires so I hope it just grips and goes.
IN response to Keiths very valued, and knowledgable comments
Troy ....Troy........Troy...................wake up......wake up......smell the coffee....your dreaming..........................
If you think you can make an engine to take-on, and compete with a Ferrari, Then you will be very Dissapinted.......
Yes you could make an engine that would possibly, have the same peak HP as the Ferrari, but no way will you have the same low speed torque, that the Ferraris, have ...its just not possible with the cam profiles that you intend to use......with an engine that peaks at around 8,000 rpm, nothing wilL happen below 4,ooorpm...just check out the available cam profiles For the SBC..............
The programm you have is just for Bench Racing.......If you want people to take you seriously..................SHOW US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.....DONT TELL US WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO......
Untill then you will be just another G. Man......
I know a flat plate plane crank is the way to go...............but I dont think you have the experiance, and knowledge ..to do it..........PROVE ME WRONG...............
Troy ....Troy........Troy...................wake up......wake up......smell the coffee....your dreaming..........................
If you think you can make an engine to take-on, and compete with a Ferrari, Then you will be very Dissapinted.......
Yes you could make an engine that would possibly, have the same peak HP as the Ferrari, but no way will you have the same low speed torque, that the Ferraris, have ...its just not possible with the cam profiles that you intend to use......with an engine that peaks at around 8,000 rpm, nothing wilL happen below 4,ooorpm...just check out the available cam profiles For the SBC..............
The programm you have is just for Bench Racing.......If you want people to take you seriously..................SHOW US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.....DONT TELL US WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO......
Untill then you will be just another G. Man......
I know a flat plate plane crank is the way to go...............but I dont think you have the experiance, and knowledge ..to do it..........PROVE ME WRONG...............
WOW Mick.......really?
Your arrogance is sickening. This is a forum you moron. Forums are used for the purpose of talking ("TELLING US WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO") with other like minded folks with the express purpose of educating and or obtaining knowledge. Otherwise it would be what they call a MAGAZINE ("SHOW US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE"). You obviously missed that point!
Amazing to what great lenghts the lazy and stupid will go to stop a person that is thinking out of the box and to keep them from completing what they themselves are too stupid and lazy to even attempt.
GO TROY!
Your arrogance is sickening. This is a forum you moron. Forums are used for the purpose of talking ("TELLING US WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO") with other like minded folks with the express purpose of educating and or obtaining knowledge. Otherwise it would be what they call a MAGAZINE ("SHOW US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE"). You obviously missed that point!
Amazing to what great lenghts the lazy and stupid will go to stop a person that is thinking out of the box and to keep them from completing what they themselves are too stupid and lazy to even attempt.
GO TROY!
Rudy,
Im not a moroon. and niether am I lazy or stupid.....( go check rule no 1 of this forum )
As far as ...thinking out of the box.....look at my build log, Im building a mono allulnium rivited and bonded chassis for my GT40. Yes its been done before, but my engine and gearbox, will be mounted in a completely different way.................and I will show people what I have done when I get to that stage...
Im really intrested in what Troy is attemping, and I wish him the best of luck but engines need to be developed...you cannot build a world beating engine, with your first attempt....It will not be as easy as he tries to make it sound
The biggest thing he is up against, is the fact that he is starting with a pushrod 2 valve engine, not a 4 valve DOHC engine. 2 valve pushrod racing engines were out dated in the 60s, when Cosworth built the first DFV engine, a DOHC, 4 Valve, flat plane engine
My comments wernt made to stop Troy from buidling a, high revving ,flat plane engine,but just to make him aware of some of the problems he will come up against.
Im not a moroon. and niether am I lazy or stupid.....( go check rule no 1 of this forum )
As far as ...thinking out of the box.....look at my build log, Im building a mono allulnium rivited and bonded chassis for my GT40. Yes its been done before, but my engine and gearbox, will be mounted in a completely different way.................and I will show people what I have done when I get to that stage...
Im really intrested in what Troy is attemping, and I wish him the best of luck but engines need to be developed...you cannot build a world beating engine, with your first attempt....It will not be as easy as he tries to make it sound
The biggest thing he is up against, is the fact that he is starting with a pushrod 2 valve engine, not a 4 valve DOHC engine. 2 valve pushrod racing engines were out dated in the 60s, when Cosworth built the first DFV engine, a DOHC, 4 Valve, flat plane engine
My comments wernt made to stop Troy from buidling a, high revving ,flat plane engine,but just to make him aware of some of the problems he will come up against.
Can we please not have here another go-around of this silly argument? An LS is not an out-dated engine.
Isn't that exactly what he is doing thus defeating the entire point of your post?
Ron Earp
Admin
Hmmmm. Tell that to the Ferrari and BMW teams who lost to the Corvettes at the VIR ALMS race this weekend. The Ferraris were running flat plane crank DOHC V8 engines, the BMWs cross plane DOHC V8 engines, and the Corvette a cross plane pushrod V8 engine. The Ferraris sounded good, as did the Corvette and BMW, but naturally they all sounded different. And in fact one Ferrari team had the fastest qualifying time for the GT class by a small margin but that did not translate into race results.
Corvette Racing sweeps ALMS GT Championships with VIR 240 victory | News | Motorsport.com
Podium Finish For Extreme Speed Motorsports At VIR :: PaddockTalk :: F1, Formula 1, NASCAR, IndyCar, MotoGP, ALMS, And More!
The race was four hours but there will be a condensed version shown on Speed2 at 5pm EST today, Sunday September 16th. I was at the race and am looking forward to seeing how the TV broadcast stacks up - I suspect the TV coverage will far more entertaining.
Yep, can't deny any of that. The "Torque Tube" presumably transformed the fortunes of the front engine cars. Low revving unstressed pushrods, what's not to like?
As for sound, I think you might need a Ford Troy! :laugh:
My favourite US pushrod sound....I love it.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WNa-K6-QI"]GT40 spin - YouTube[/ame]
(It's all in the exhaust system, cam, heads and IR carbs)
As for sound, I think you might need a Ford Troy! :laugh:
My favourite US pushrod sound....I love it.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WNa-K6-QI"]GT40 spin - YouTube[/ame]
(It's all in the exhaust system, cam, heads and IR carbs)
Ron Earp
Admin
Making a flat plane crank V8 is an interesting exercise but I suspect the real-world impact won't be realized without a top notch team effort and a great driver.
This difference in hp/torque predicted by a model:
Is going to be lost in the engine tuning, dyno noise, local track conditions, chassis setup, model meets "real world", etc. and certainly to driver skill unless everything is just perfect.
You mentioned that you'd be racing around ten years or so. What club and series do you compete in and where in VA are you located?
This difference in hp/torque predicted by a model:
Is going to be lost in the engine tuning, dyno noise, local track conditions, chassis setup, model meets "real world", etc. and certainly to driver skill unless everything is just perfect.
You mentioned that you'd be racing around ten years or so. What club and series do you compete in and where in VA are you located?
WOW, how do I begin. Mickky, you may have some valid points, maybe, but tack you need to learn. First, do you know me at all or my abilities? How can you say I do not have experience? Do you have any idea of what I have done or not? By you saying "wake up" you basically call me out as a complete idiot and I do not feel that is needed or valid and should take it as insult. But I gave up a long time ago getting upset with people that are just angry or have issue. What do I need- my engine building resume out there for you to validate who I am and what I have done in the past. I am not going for a job interview here so lets just keep it simple and say that I have built engines and good ones at that. Now they have been 4 and 6 cyl engines, NA and turbo making from 225-600hp depending on which. I have revved without and issue to 10,500 so I understand that part. I have build kit cars before and built a FFR cobra like the first year they made them, yah I am old. I have history, won races and do well with the race team I have. This is not my first time at bat and I have been building engines and cars for 10+ years now. I have good people I know that are helping me as needed who have done it for 40 years. Now if anyone wants to see what I am working on right now, when I have time in between races, here it is. Let me know if you like version 1, 2 or 3. I am thinking something between 2 and 3 now so maybe a 2.5. MR2 Mini
So lets start addressing the statements you have made. First, I am sure can build an engine with as much hp as the Ferrari, not that I am trying to compete with them in that realm. I do want something similar in sound and the main reason to build the engine. The F cars have dohc with variable timing throughout so they will have more torque down low than I can, but that is also a 4.5L engine versus 5.0L so that might not be that different when all done.
BTW- there is a really really simple solution to not having low end torque. It is called your right foot, Give it some gas and rev the engine higher. My engine will rev to and past 8000 all day long so the really low end torque is not needed. Plus, we have a 2300-2400lbs car, how much torque do we really need there?
The program I have is not for bench racing, it is a tool and just that. You can use different parameters to figure out what will be the correct combination before you ever begin to build. I got it to do just that. It verified to me that I can use an LS1 block and head and make the power at the rpms I want and be happy with. It has actually saved me money on not spending more on a new block and head that would make more power, but not so much as it is needed in my car. It is called planning ahead and having good execution so we can be successful the first time around. It also validates the cams I have gotten in that when I make it less or more duration or lift it changes where the power is and how so this makes the decision for that aspect better. It also helps me decide on which intake size and some parameters of that. So it is just a tool, but based on me putting in others engines it sure does seem really accurate. So this tool will help me build the right engine the first time.
Then after reading more comments I am almost thinking you are really just hating on the LSX platform thinking that the only way to make an engine is with DOHC. I can not really be mad at that because I used to be the same way when I was young and did not know much about engines or was arrogant thinking that the only right way was DOHC. Now the more I have learned and done the more the base LSx engines are really amazing. Sure DOHC would be better for revving and other parts, but considering packaging and where the weight it and how much power you make then the LSx engines are really amazing, it just took me a while to get past my arrogance and ego thinking more is always better and simple can actually be better.
So on not being able to make an LSx engine into a flat plane crank engine here are some points to make.
1- It makes almost no sense to do it when you think logically. Just get an LS376/480 and be done. More than enough power /torque, proven, simple and done. Now I do not consider myself normal and I am looking for more than just power/torque. I am building an SLC because I am crazy and passionate about cars, I am actually quote obsessed and I know it is an issue I try to manage each day. I would think most of the SLC builders or owners are the same. I know we have issues and probably some big gremlins in our minds to be wanting to do what we do. A simpler idea is to just buy a Z06 and be done, but nah on that. I am building an SLC as my dream car and the engine is a huge part of that for me so I want something exotic sounding and feeling. To me that is what the SLC is, a crazy, exotic car I can build the way I want. Plus, building my own engine that others have not yet done will make me proud of the accomplishment when done.
2- Why can it not be done? Sure, aspects of it are complicated, but the more you know about engines and understand how they work the more it is not that difficult to understand. Sure, getting all the different manufactures to make the specific parts the way you want makes a difference, but that is part of the challenge. The more I have learned about engines the more I have learned others do not know. Sure, they will know use this cam duration for this hp in this range, but do they really understand how it all works together. When calling around for specific manufactures I learned really quick that 90% of the big name places out there are really just guys who like cars and do this or that, but do not have real understanding. The flat plane crank is an easy way to weed out the places though.
3- It is really just an LSX engine. The crank is a different shape so it fires at a different time, but everything else is pretty straight forward and has been done. Has anyone every destroked an engine, I think so. Has anyone revved a LSx past 8,000 and to 9,000rpm, sure done tons of times. Custom con rods, I think just maybe since there are tons of companies that make them and lots of people with it, how about pistons that are light for high revs, sure done before. Now the cam, pick a cam profile you like with duration, lift and timing you want and have it ground with the correct firing order, can be done by many, custom intake for higher rpms, think sheet metal or a few companies that have done it. ECU, stock is more than powerful enough and just repin the ecu. So explain to me how it will not work and why? No really do! If you are some master engine builder and have some insight onto why it can not be done and the specifics of to how then please share. I am sharing on how I am going to build it with specifics so please do not just throw out generalizations on how it will not work because I am an inexperienced engine builder, that I am not. Give me facts that you know.
4- The only issue known to doing a flat plane crank that I have seen is the vibration issue. So I researched that before going ahead. The more I learned about cranks, how they balance them and what is involved the more I understand how a lot of flat plane cranks will vibrate. For a race engine you would have a 20lb crank that revs really fast and high and make power. Mine will be 45lbs and be a fully counterbalanced crank. The crank builder has built these before and it done. I am not reinventing the wheel, kind off, just using what others have done in different aspects and putting it all together.
So Miccky, lets have a healthy discussion here and please let me know, in full detailed specifics of why this will fail because I am only 98% sure it will all work out so 2% of me is still skeptical, but I have been told I can be a negative person so maybe that 2% is a bit of an exaggeration.
So lets start addressing the statements you have made. First, I am sure can build an engine with as much hp as the Ferrari, not that I am trying to compete with them in that realm. I do want something similar in sound and the main reason to build the engine. The F cars have dohc with variable timing throughout so they will have more torque down low than I can, but that is also a 4.5L engine versus 5.0L so that might not be that different when all done.
BTW- there is a really really simple solution to not having low end torque. It is called your right foot, Give it some gas and rev the engine higher. My engine will rev to and past 8000 all day long so the really low end torque is not needed. Plus, we have a 2300-2400lbs car, how much torque do we really need there?
The program I have is not for bench racing, it is a tool and just that. You can use different parameters to figure out what will be the correct combination before you ever begin to build. I got it to do just that. It verified to me that I can use an LS1 block and head and make the power at the rpms I want and be happy with. It has actually saved me money on not spending more on a new block and head that would make more power, but not so much as it is needed in my car. It is called planning ahead and having good execution so we can be successful the first time around. It also validates the cams I have gotten in that when I make it less or more duration or lift it changes where the power is and how so this makes the decision for that aspect better. It also helps me decide on which intake size and some parameters of that. So it is just a tool, but based on me putting in others engines it sure does seem really accurate. So this tool will help me build the right engine the first time.
Then after reading more comments I am almost thinking you are really just hating on the LSX platform thinking that the only way to make an engine is with DOHC. I can not really be mad at that because I used to be the same way when I was young and did not know much about engines or was arrogant thinking that the only right way was DOHC. Now the more I have learned and done the more the base LSx engines are really amazing. Sure DOHC would be better for revving and other parts, but considering packaging and where the weight it and how much power you make then the LSx engines are really amazing, it just took me a while to get past my arrogance and ego thinking more is always better and simple can actually be better.
So on not being able to make an LSx engine into a flat plane crank engine here are some points to make.
1- It makes almost no sense to do it when you think logically. Just get an LS376/480 and be done. More than enough power /torque, proven, simple and done. Now I do not consider myself normal and I am looking for more than just power/torque. I am building an SLC because I am crazy and passionate about cars, I am actually quote obsessed and I know it is an issue I try to manage each day. I would think most of the SLC builders or owners are the same. I know we have issues and probably some big gremlins in our minds to be wanting to do what we do. A simpler idea is to just buy a Z06 and be done, but nah on that. I am building an SLC as my dream car and the engine is a huge part of that for me so I want something exotic sounding and feeling. To me that is what the SLC is, a crazy, exotic car I can build the way I want. Plus, building my own engine that others have not yet done will make me proud of the accomplishment when done.
2- Why can it not be done? Sure, aspects of it are complicated, but the more you know about engines and understand how they work the more it is not that difficult to understand. Sure, getting all the different manufactures to make the specific parts the way you want makes a difference, but that is part of the challenge. The more I have learned about engines the more I have learned others do not know. Sure, they will know use this cam duration for this hp in this range, but do they really understand how it all works together. When calling around for specific manufactures I learned really quick that 90% of the big name places out there are really just guys who like cars and do this or that, but do not have real understanding. The flat plane crank is an easy way to weed out the places though.
3- It is really just an LSX engine. The crank is a different shape so it fires at a different time, but everything else is pretty straight forward and has been done. Has anyone every destroked an engine, I think so. Has anyone revved a LSx past 8,000 and to 9,000rpm, sure done tons of times. Custom con rods, I think just maybe since there are tons of companies that make them and lots of people with it, how about pistons that are light for high revs, sure done before. Now the cam, pick a cam profile you like with duration, lift and timing you want and have it ground with the correct firing order, can be done by many, custom intake for higher rpms, think sheet metal or a few companies that have done it. ECU, stock is more than powerful enough and just repin the ecu. So explain to me how it will not work and why? No really do! If you are some master engine builder and have some insight onto why it can not be done and the specifics of to how then please share. I am sharing on how I am going to build it with specifics so please do not just throw out generalizations on how it will not work because I am an inexperienced engine builder, that I am not. Give me facts that you know.
4- The only issue known to doing a flat plane crank that I have seen is the vibration issue. So I researched that before going ahead. The more I learned about cranks, how they balance them and what is involved the more I understand how a lot of flat plane cranks will vibrate. For a race engine you would have a 20lb crank that revs really fast and high and make power. Mine will be 45lbs and be a fully counterbalanced crank. The crank builder has built these before and it done. I am not reinventing the wheel, kind off, just using what others have done in different aspects and putting it all together.
So Miccky, lets have a healthy discussion here and please let me know, in full detailed specifics of why this will fail because I am only 98% sure it will all work out so 2% of me is still skeptical, but I have been told I can be a negative person so maybe that 2% is a bit of an exaggeration.
That does sound amazing. Yum. Time will tell what mine sounds like. Go to love the engine braking rear end sping of mid engine cars. 99% of the time when you spin that is the reason. I have learned to steer with my right foot and then no more spins. Good times.
So...after you have thrashed your bank balance to death having your 45 lb flat plane crank, custom camshaft, rods & pistons made to order the only thing your going to gain over a 'normal' crank rod piston assy is the 180° headers on each bank. The way I see it the real advantages are the exh as you mention & the reduction in weight of a 'light' flat plane crank, given that you can buy a ~45lb 'normal crank/rod/piston assy off the shelf for a lot less money you have thrown out the only other real advantage in the conversion....but its your money, throw away
