Guns, pros and cons!

[Rick S.]

1. I think it's a personal choice whether to own guns or not. Should not be dictated.
2. CCW permits should be issued to all that want one (unless you are a convicted felon). There is a reason why, in the mid '90's that the bad guys in Florida jacked tourists in rental cars...there was a good chance that everyone else was carrying.
3. CCW holders should be allowed to carry everywhere. Even on airplanes. Then, jacking an airplane would be like holding up a cop-bar.
4. I have no issue with background checks, as long as they are done. I have no issue with waiting periods, as long as they are useful. I have no issue with the gun manufacturers taking bullet samples on each gun they sell.

my $0.02 worth.

 

[Roark_John]

Only because someone else does have them. And risks their life to ensure yours. Great deal for you, not so much for them. Completely un-realistic for survival or personal responsibility (owning your life and the care for it).

I can live without them...

 

[Jeff Young]

Do you live in Deadwood?

 

[Roark_John]

Guns and violence don't necessarily go hand in hand, but people and violence always do.

Your ENTIRE way of life is predicated on violence...before, during and after. The socio-politico-economic realities of expanding territory from the time of the Greeks & Persians, further to the settling of the Americas and slaughter/subjugation of the natives, to the rampant industrialization of nations and capitalization of every resource on the planet...it has ALL been driven by violence. Guns didn't start it. MONEY did. The quest for POWER and CONTROL. By PEOPLE.

Why are most people so daft as not to recognize this? Is it really possible to be a trust-fund hippy and live as well as you do, with all the available commodities and conveniences without this concept? Not if you actually know how the world works.

Guns are force-multiplying tools. Leverage at a distance. Empowerment for potential victims, if they possess the werewithal to fight. Nothing more, nothing less. Guns are an extension of the human mind AND the human body.

Anyone who doesn't want to own one, use one, train with one or maintain one isn't required to. Ultimately though, YOUR life is your own to take responsibility for. As with health care, earnings, personal choices, partnerships...we humans are where we are due to our ability to adapt and overcome any potential situation. We all have not been lucky enough to do so, but many have served as examples. YOUR life is a result of YOUR personal choices, intertwined with the actions of other people. Is it fair, just or correct that this happens? Not always. Yet some people think that they have the right to force their opinion and decisions on others. Hello pot, meet kettle!

Society was formed to benefit the survival of the species, not the advancement of individual desire. Time to get back in the game with our heads on our shoulders, not up our collective asses. ANY tool that is meant to multiply our advantage to survive is something that should be welcomed by any well-thought, well-meaning member of our species. Nature does not care about your personal feelings on a matter...all she cares about is results. If you go extinct, she will replace you. If you manage to survive enough rounds, you will evolve into an even better version based on that exhibited potential.

You can't change the species by holding others back. You can't change human nature by denying others the right to possess tools based on YOUR fears. Nature does not care one whit what you feel...all she cares about is what you do and what you can accomplish. Then your genes will be carried forth into the next generation.

Guns enable modern man to accomplish what primitive man would have given his front lobe for...the ability to project force from a distance and kill on command...for food, for resources, for freedom, for protection.

All creation has been a result of DEVELOPMENT...not RETROGRESS. A thing has no negative connotations. Only a person can label something good or bad. An inanimate object can not by definition BE anything other than what it is. It is incapable of action!

You can drop out of the human race if you so choose. But you will never take my options from me to advance myself forward. If you try you will fail. Because you refuse to initiate force against me yourself, but are cavalier enough to put others in your stead to exert your will, you will find yourself in the position of subject not master. No other person will ever subjugate themselves to the extent you require, so long as they have the capacity to think for themselves and the power to implement it.

The gun control issue is just that...about control. POWER and CONTROL over the choices of others. Anyone who takes an anti-stance regarding ANY human choice is a tyrant. Despotism is not a noble cause. That is why so many are fervent in fighting those who "know what's best". Whether they are capable of articulating it or not, it comes down to an instinctive urge to fight slavery. Might makes right on both sides of the aisle. The anti's only advantage is that they themselves will never enter the fray, so long as they have others to do their bidding. Once they run out of surrogates, they will be forced to recognize the hyprocrisy of their conceits.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. And control zealots have killed more people than fringe users, criminals and unstable people EVER will.

 

[Jack]

Well put John. I maintain many "force multipliers", possess a concealed weapons permit and have found myself in situations where it was not necessary to reveal the concealed weapon. Simply found a less permanent solution to the problem at hand.

Reasonable and skilled persons would rarely display (as a threat which is stupid, IMO)
any weapon unless prepared to use it without question. If a life is threatened, choices are made. Simple. People kill people, by whatever means is at hand.

 

[chuck smith]

keep in mind that in the US we are guaranteed the ownership of firearms by our constitution, and that right has nothing to do with the sporting use of arms or self protection from other individuals, but instead it is intended to help the citizen protect himself and others from a wayward government. The most scary situation to me would be for only our government to own firearms. At that point one is surely at the mercy of those in power, and of course this is exactly what the present power base wants. the next most scary scenario would be for honest citizens to be stripped of firearms while felons happily aquire them. At that point we are at the mercy of the worst of society. We live in a dangerous world and I do not plan to be at the bottom of the food chain. I do respect anyones decision not to own a gun, that his his right also, but do not try and trample my rights. As far as the UK or Aussies go, you unfortunatly do not have the protection that we have from seizure of arms, I think you will be the worse off for it.

 

[Dave Wood]

Pros - I have a lot of them.
Cons - I would like more, they are expensive, and I am running out of space to store them.

How'd I do?

My sentiments exactly. +1 to Chuck also.
I haven't looked at the most recent statistics, but not long ago most murders in the U.S. were from knives. Ban the knives, they aren't constitutionally protected.I know that's absurd, but it always seems to get a frenzy when they want to ban guns. I think it takes a lot more sick individual to kill someone with a knife( or ball bat...etc.) than to shoot someone. I could, in self defense, if I had no other option. Fortunately I have many.
I believe more people are killed in cars ever year than by guns...ban the cars.

 

[marc]

You live in America you have the right via our Constitution to own a gun. You have a lot of other rights that are spelled out. If you allow your rights to be whittled away, sooner or later you are back to becoming a slave of others. Don't give up your rights. The rest of us worked too hard (some the ultimate sacrifice)to earn them.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

People pull the trigger.
If you applied the same logic to cars as the anti gun lobby use, all cars should be banned. Lots more people get killed by cars every year than by guns. (war zones excepted).

Sorry Dave, we must have posted about the same time.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I've had a CCW permit for 18 years, and never had the gun out of the holster when carrying. At the same time, I would hate to be in need of it and not have it.
In the early 1960's in North Haven, Ct, two men entered the Little Red Shoe House, a discount shoe outlet. There were 12 customers and the owner. The two men held up the store and took a couple of hundred dollars. They then had the people kneel down in a row and walked behind and shot each in the back of the head. At some point they had to reload. At the time I was 19 or 20 and remember the feeling I had that not one of the people (sheep) tried to do anything. There were 13 of them, they could have easily overpowered the two men. A few may have been hurt or died, but they were going to die anyway. I know I would not have knelt down, no way! It still bothers me, what a waste!

 

[Nick]

The anti's only advantage is that they themselves will never enter the fray, so long as they have others to do their bidding. Once they run out of surrogates, they will be forced to recognize the hyprocrisy of their conceits.

John,

There are many antis who have entered the fray, their experiences make them feel when it comes to guns the cons out weigh the pros, and that is what makes them antis.


Unlike Harry Patch a true hero in every sense of the word, I lack the courage to be a pacifist. I wish I didn’t but it is easier not to be.

Radiohead yesterday premiered a song using Harry's own pacifist words

War is a calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings"--Harry Patch


6th August 2009


Today is the day that Harry Patch, having lived 111 years on the earth to become last surviving "Tommy" of the first world war, is laid to rest in Wells, Somerset.

Like Henry Allingham, who died aged 113 just weeks ago, Harry kept silent for over eight decades about the horrors he witnessed in the trenches.

Many would say it was characteristic of that generation to simply remain quiet. Harry Patch, like millions of other young men, put themselves on the front line in the name of duty – "king and country". There was nothing else to be said. They were products of a different time, deference was still alive and kicking, and there was certainly no note of today's tell-all celebrity culture. After a year of convalescence from his injuries Harry simply returned to work and settled down to marriage and fatherhood.

Yet, thankfully, Harry was encouraged in his final years to speak out on the absolute futility of war. And I, for one, am grateful. My own grandfather had also been a Tommy, in both name and rank. He survived the war, yet died long before I was born so that I would never get to hear those memories directly.

Harry Patch honoured the ghosts of his, and our collective past, when he declared the full monstrosity and pointlessness of war. He compensated for those eight decades of silence with all the force of his younger self, reinvigorating his own sense of purpose, and ensuring that we do not forget.

Radiohead yesterday premiered a song using Harry's own pacifist words. Andrew Motion wrote a poem in his honour, The Five Acts of Harry Patch, and there was also the autobiography, The Last Fighting Tommy.

Harry also made clear during his final years that the "official" day of remembrance for those who sacrificed their lives in combat was nothing more than "showbusiness". His own remembrance day had always been 22 September. That was the day when Harry Patch watched his three best mates blown to pieces, and also the day when his war also came to an end.

Listening to Harry, and reading his words, it seems clear to me that the most important thing for him was the power of friendship. It is fitting then, that the final part of Harry's funeral service will be focused on the theme of peace and reconciliation. A lesson for all times.

What have you learned from the life of Harry Patch?

 

[Mike Christian]

Only because someone else does have them. And risks their life to ensure yours. Great deal for you, not so much for them. Completely un-realistic for survival or personal responsibility (owning your life and the care for it).

Your sentiment is not for me. Your reality and mine are different.

I watched a loved one die the other day. I have my own personal understanding of death. The stopwatch starts the second we are born. I don't have control over when and where and how. I accept that. I make prudent decisions to minimize the risk with things I do understand, but I don't fear all the possible things that will kill me - there are too many to control.

If the gun makes you feel safe, then so be it. Guns don't make me feel any safer.

 

[Doug S.]

I have my own personal understanding of death. The stopwatch starts the second we are born.

I think Roger McGuinn of The Byrds said that best:

"If you're not busy being born, you're busy dieing".

Aren't we all on the same path :idea: ?

Cheers from Doug!!

 

[Nick]

that not one of the people (sheep) tried to do anything. There were 13 of them, they could have easily overpowered the two men. A few may have been hurt or died, but they were going to die anyway. I know I would not have knelt down, no way! It still bothers me, what a waste!

Al,

Not sure what this has to do with the pros and cons of gun control.

I have voiced similar macho stuff myself. I hope to God I am never put in a similar situation as those poor people, I can give it all the bravado possible, but until I am I have no idea how I would react.

As I understand it many trained professional, wolves sheepdogs sheep whatever label you want to put on them have frozen with fear in similar situations.

There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Roark_John]

Saying that war is a futility is an offense against the honor you are trying to pay Harry Patch, others before and since him.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind speaking German and/or French and living the National-Socialistic dream, but I daresay many on your continent feel differently.

Not all wars are just, but nevertheless some wars do need fought. There is no way to reconcile this reality so long as others wish you harm.

I for one am all for less war and violence. I am also for freedom and justice. At times you must have war and violence, in order for freedom and justice to blossom. Otherwise the "old ways" would still be here...and your opinion would count for naught. Don't be so willing to buy the rhetoric of "peace via slavery" that so many put forth as a viable alternative. If one is really aware of human nature, one sees it is not an alternative at all.

John,

There are many antis who have entered the fray, their experiences make them feel when it comes to guns the cons out weigh the pros, and that is what makes them antis.


Unlike Harry Patch a true hero in every sense of the word, I lack the courage to be a pacifist. I wish I didn’t but it is easier not to be.

Radiohead yesterday premiered a song using Harry's own pacifist words

War is a calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings"--Harry Patch
6th August 2009


Today is the day that Harry Patch, having lived 111 years on the earth to become last surviving "Tommy" of the first world war, is laid to rest in Wells, Somerset.

Like Henry Allingham, who died aged 113 just weeks ago, Harry kept silent for over eight decades about the horrors he witnessed in the trenches.

Many would say it was characteristic of that generation to simply remain quiet. Harry Patch, like millions of other young men, put themselves on the front line in the name of duty – "king and country". There was nothing else to be said. They were products of a different time, deference was still alive and kicking, and there was certainly no note of today's tell-all celebrity culture. After a year of convalescence from his injuries Harry simply returned to work and settled down to marriage and fatherhood.

Yet, thankfully, Harry was encouraged in his final years to speak out on the absolute futility of war. And I, for one, am grateful. My own grandfather had also been a Tommy, in both name and rank. He survived the war, yet died long before I was born so that I would never get to hear those memories directly.

Harry Patch honoured the ghosts of his, and our collective past, when he declared the full monstrosity and pointlessness of war. He compensated for those eight decades of silence with all the force of his younger self, reinvigorating his own sense of purpose, and ensuring that we do not forget.

Radiohead yesterday premiered a song using Harry's own pacifist words. Andrew Motion wrote a poem in his honour, The Five Acts of Harry Patch, and there was also the autobiography, The Last Fighting Tommy.

Harry also made clear during his final years that the "official" day of remembrance for those who sacrificed their lives in combat was nothing more than "showbusiness". His own remembrance day had always been 22 September. That was the day when Harry Patch watched his three best mates blown to pieces, and also the day when his war also came to an end.

Listening to Harry, and reading his words, it seems clear to me that the most important thing for him was the power of friendship. It is fitting then, that the final part of Harry's funeral service will be focused on the theme of peace and reconciliation. A lesson for all times.

What have you learned from the life of Harry Patch?

 

[Jack]

+1 John..

 

[Roark_John]

Ok Mike...are you trying to tell everyone you are so self-sufficient and responsible for your own existence that you have no need of doctors, nurses, firemen, police officers or military? Not to mention those who work in the sewage and waste industries? Or farmers and ranchers? Or construction workers and machinists?

The fact remains, no matter how you choose to deny reality, no man is an island. And the military and police are there to ensure that some semblance of peace is maintained so that you, the citizen, can go about their daily business.

Mark my words, whether you believe YOU need a firearm or not to live, there are those who DO so that you MAY live. That safety you feel is provided by those who put their own safety at risk so that the thin veneer of civility is maintained, allowing you your worldview. Pray you never see that thin veneer slide away. I have, and it's an ugly world that we really live in.

Your sentiment is not for me. Your reality and mine are different.

I watched a loved one die the other day. I have my own personal understanding of death. The stopwatch starts the second we are born. I don't have control over when and where and how. I accept that. I make prudent decisions to minimize the risk with things I do understand, but I don't fear all the possible things that will kill me - there are too many to control.

If the gun makes you feel safe, then so be it. Guns don't make me feel any safer.

 

[Mike Christian]

Ok Mike...are you trying to tell everyone you are so self-sufficient and responsible for your own existence that you have no need of doctors, nurses, firemen, police officers or military? Not to mention those who work in the sewage and waste industries? Or farmers and ranchers? Or construction workers and machinists?

The fact remains, no matter how you choose to deny reality, no man is an island. And the military and police are there to ensure that some semblance of peace is maintained so that you, the citizen, can go about their daily business.

Mark my words, whether you believe YOU need a firearm or not to live, there are those who DO so that you MAY live. That safety you feel is provided by those who put their own safety at risk so that the thin veneer of civility is maintained, allowing you your worldview. Pray you never see that thin veneer slide away. I have, and it's an ugly world that we really live in.

Take from it what you will. I am not trying to tell everyone I am self sufficient. You are reading way too much into my words. It is a public forum and I am just expressing my viewpoint like you.

I have worked part of my life to build and support the security "shield". I am not living in a bubble. I do not deny reality. I am just not standing on the same soapbox as you. Nothing wrong with that. None of us are the omega man after all...

I personally don't feel that I need a firearm to live my life. Oh, and I don't pray, as I am not religious.

We will all turn to soup. Mark my words.

 

[chuck smith]

there is nothing wrong with Mikes stand, it is how he chooses to live. Negative opinions on guns are fine, in fact I cannot argue against some points made by gun control advocates. However, the fact remains that we have the constitutional right to bear arms in the US and thank the Lord we do.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

Not sure what this has to do with the pros and cons of gun control.

I have voiced similar macho stuff myself. I hope to God I am never put in a similar situation as those poor people, I can give it all the bravado possible, but until I am I have no idea how I would react.

As I understand it many trained professional, wolves sheepdogs sheep whatever label you want to put on them have frozen with fear in similar situations.

There but for the grace of God go I.

Had someone been armed, maybe the outcome would have been different. It sure as hell couldn't have been worse!