MSD Ignition or Weber Carb Issue?

[flatchat(Chris)]

Re: Distributor gear fail

Are we running points ignition or electronic module ??(breaker less) --errant messages from bad, poor, wet connections can be a frustrating P.O.S sometimes.
Have you tried fresh fuel ?

 

[RichardH]

Re: Distributor gear fail

Pictures now attached - although it cannot be seen by the pic down the disty hole - the cam gear teeth look fine. I am using a breakerless EM system. The fuel is partlu old - partly new - the first thing I did was to top up both tanks with Shell Optimax, I have never had a problem before with that fuel.

 

[Ron Earp]

Sorry guys, I accidentally combined this dizzy thread with an unrelated weber carb thread. My fault but I hope things will carry on since that action cannot be undone.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[Jac Mac]

Richard. Before we all start going off at tangents over this, can you give us a rundown of what components you have in the motor. Roller Cam? Hyd or Solid lifter? Is that an Accel Distributor? Rev Limit being used? Oil Pump-Standard or Hi-Volume. Mileage done since last rebuild etc.

 

[RichardH]

erm...
thats a bit of a problem, Jac - I bought this car fully built from Roy Snook in 2005 - so do not know details. It has been to Le Mans twice since then and generally running around - so about 1000-3000miles .
I have not rebuilt the engine.
I do not know what type of cam although i do have notes which mention....
Michegan? camshaft
Competition Cams camshaft
Edelbrock Performer camshaft
I also have notes which mention...
Rhodes lifters
Edelbrock lifters
Harland shop roller rockers

I have receipts for.....
Hardened Push rods - Real Steel BYRP-3223R
Valves - Real Steel BY6060-8 & BY6065-8
Springs - Real Steel BY972-16

It is an Accel 43201A Eval Tracker distributor with MSD5 or 6AL ignition (I will check).
It is rev limited (the plug in type) to 5500 and an MSD Blaster2 coil.
Hi Volume oil pump - real steel BY6240

 

[Jac Mac]

Richard.Going by that info you sent the cam is a flat tappet hydraulic lifter type & only requires an ordinary cam gear--NOT BRONZE. I will go thru the list of parts & clarify for you later. One thing you MUST do when fitting your replacement gear is measure the block & fit the gear according to that dimension, I will do a sketch to illustrate this & post . The info that some dizzy manf's supply is incorrect. If you think the dist is sick in the module or advance weights etc now would be a good time to get a sparky to run it up on a machine to eliminate that also. I have found some Accel models give problems in the mech adv weight area.

This camshaft [Comp Cams pn 31-216-2] only requires std dizzy gear[ examine cam drive gear as well ] , Hi Vo pump will be biggest enemy of cam/dizzy gear-- Keep startup RPM below 2500 rpm & oil pressure below 60# until oil is warm . Install new gear as below. If that Accel is Ball Bearing shaft with minimal endfloat which prevents installation of gear as per drawing in pic, toss it & get a dizzy which will, check your new dizzy as per drawing as well--THE GEAR is meant to control the Running Height of the shaft in dist-- not the dist brgs/bushes.

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Lets have a look inside the dizzy cap --is the carbon brush (for the coil to rotor ) doing its job ??

 

[RichardH]

I can see that this is very quickly getting out of my league.
I understand what you are saying, Jac, but I do not have the facilities to check the distributor bore depth sufficiently accurately. I have noticed that the "play" in the disty shaft is circa 1mm, rather than the .6-.9mm recommended by Ford (and Yes - there is a roller bearing on top of the washer). However I am not sure that this, although imperfect, would cause my problems. I am inclined to think that a new gear and disty setup is a job after the car is running "properly", because it seems like I might have to send it away to a machine shop.
Carbon brush looks as if a replacement wouldnt do any harm. It looks a bit short. A clean of the rotor arm wont do any harm, either.

 

[Jac Mac]

Roller brg with 'freeplay' up & down to let gear run against face in block will be fine, its the distributors with ball bearing races that have no 'up/down' freeplay that cause problems. You can measure the block recess with a set of vernier calipers [ helps if they are digital readout for old tired eyes like mine ], main thing is to measure 'your' block. We found a variation of around 0.007" on four 351w blocks recently.

 

[RichardH]

lol
for Vernier calipers - would a plastic rule do :stunned::disappointed::speechless::stupid:

 

[Jac Mac]

lol
for Vernier calipers - would a plastic rule do :stunned::disappointed::speechless::stupid:

No, But as an 'Engineering Manager' with a 'GT40' & 40+ years in the 'Trade' its time you bought a set! Cars like this are 'never finished' and Im sure you will find further use for a good set of digital readout verniers.

 

[Ron Earp]

How about call Roy Snook and ask him exactly what is in the engine and so on? Don't want to be "Master of the Obvious" here, but going to the source instead of relying on notes and receipts might be better than estimating.

 

[RichardH]

i have emailed Roy - but no answer as yet - he is a very busy guy tho.
Obviously if he can help then it would make my life a lot easier.

and yes - the plastic rule was a bit tongue in cheek.

 

[RichardH]

Bum!
The f f f foo hicking disty wont go back int 'ole.
It drops into the block until the o-ring is level with the top of the hole and wont go any further. I have tried rotating the centre shaft, but it seems to be meshed with the cam teeth. I have tried rotating the outer housing and wiggling it from side to side and front to back, but it seems to be fouling on summat.
Removed plugs but wont turn engine over for compression test until disty is fitted back. Most look ok, but a couple are black and wet.

Pics to post when i get home.

 

[RichardH]

Rite - Piccies.
I think I have found a problem with refitting the Distributor..
Please excuse my ignorance, but the bottom of the disty shaft is hollow.... looking down the hole in the block, there appears to be a small shaft/bolt sticking up from the bottom.
Except it isnt in the centre of the shaft hole in the block - it seems to be towards the front of the engine. If that is the case, it will not slide inside the disty shaft and is stopping the distributor from going fully home. Would I be correct in thinking this must be part of the oil pump? I am going to try and reposition it using a long thin screwdriver - or is this a sign of more problems/impending disaster?

Pics of
distributor as "home" as it will go, you can just see the O ring level with the top of the hole in the block.
down hole (it is possible, with some knowledge and imagination, to see the offending spigot at the "10 O'clock position)
and of the plugs. They are NGK - what gap should they be set too? Any recommendations?

 

[Jac Mac]

Richard, your eyesight is about on par with mine, get our specs out & you will 'see' that the hole in the dist shaft is actually an internal hex that matches the hex oil pump drive that you see in the block recess, dont panic, it is 'free standing', just use a pair of fine tip long nose pliers to turn the shaft slightly (( an old dizzy with the gear removed is even better & a great tool for priming oil pressure )),& the dist should drop right down, it has a tapered 'lead' to assist in this, might take a couple of goes. Dont lift the pump drive shaft, just turn it. [ They usually have a press on collar to prevent them lifting, but just to be on the safe side, DONT... or your next post might not be so cheerful ]

 

[Randy V]

Hi Richard....

Yes - the oil pump drive shaft can be a royal pain to get to seat in the distributor... Sometimes a bit of up/down jiggling and even a bit of a hard smack down (not with a hammer blow mind you) will make the shaft jump to center and slip inside the distributor. Now remember also that it is a hex drive and that needs to sync up with the hex hole in the distributor shaft.. That may take a 1/4" socket taped (yes I said taped) to an extension so you can turn it just a hair - and then try again until you hear the sweet success of what we call around here "CLUNK"..

The spark plugs should be gapped between .035 and .040". Don't trust the factory to have also done this properly. I've found more than one plug gap that was pinched almost closed due to mishandling not of my own..

Don't forget to TAPE THE SOCKET TO THE EXTENSION!!!

 

[Randy V]

Whoops - looks like Jac beat me to the punch...

 

[RichardH]

Hmmm! the Saga continues....
Managed to get the distributor back in about 30 degrees out (I assume that is a case of rotating the distributor body by the same amount when static timing the engine?).

With the disty back in, I was happy to do a compression test....
Oh my God!!
erm - what should it be?
I am used to seeing figures in the 120-130PSI range on my other cars - but 65!!!!!!
figures are as pic below - these look horrendously low to me, even assuming stock 8.8:1 CR I would expect to see about 115-125PSI.

I am not sure of the ratio between CR and PSI, but am I right that each CR equates to 1 Bar - ie 8.8CR=8.8Bar=130PSI (1Bar=14.7PSI) using air as the medium?
and
the million dollar Q - what would cause them to drop whilst laid up?
The fact that I am getting some figures, makes me believe that there aren't any valves stuck open, at least. It is possible of an HGF between cylinders 2&3, as the figures are identical. I might try and repeat these tests tomorrow.
Pictures of engine strip-down are springing to mind .

 

[Jac Mac]

Leakdown on 2&3 should solve that...

Comp Ratio is total (((cyl + chamber vol [ head + gasket + clearance +/- piston(dome/dish)]-))) divided by chamber vol.

Could simply be rust & flakes of carbon etc on valve seats after layup.