Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Ever tried peacefully coexisting with a maniac?
My heart goes out
- Thread starter Howard Jones
- Start date
Pat
Supporter
Maybe because I'm a retired soldier but I don't think capitulation works, or at least I've never seen it do so in my lifetime. Like sharks, these beasts prey on those that they perceive as vulnerable. We weren't bombing Afghanistan or in Iraq when the USS Cole was bombed, the embassy attacked or the planes took 3,000 lives on 9/11 nor did the Muslim women and children killed in Iraqi market and mosque bombings. While I admire the idealism of some here, the grim reality is you are putting post industrial/information age values on what is a pre-agrarian tribal society. You can no more reason with them than the Europeans could with Attila the Hun. I’ve served in the Middle East and the radicals have a core hatred for our way of life and their nihilistic solution is to eradicate it. We can wish all we want but they are simply driven by their hatred and ignorance. When one looks at Al Qaeda literature, it references the infidel crusaders and Jews as the target of their destruction. This hatred goes back centuries. The rules of war are simple; hit the other guy until their will erodes. We have occupied Germany and Japan for decades. This will take as least as long and the fight probably is not for the protection of our children but our grandchildren. I’m with Howard, freedom and education is their greatest fear and our most powerful weapon. William Eaton wrote home that, "there is but one language which can be held to these people, and this is terror." He was negotiating with the Barbary Pirates in North Africa. The year was 1803…
Our thoughts and prayers go out to all those impacted by this most recent act of barbarism.
Our thoughts and prayers go out to all those impacted by this most recent act of barbarism.
Veek,
It is amazing how much we agree, especially the part about capitulation not working. Almost everything that you have said is spot on, so why don’t we agree that any solution that we undertake should not exacerbate the situation? It is correct to say that they have a core hatred. So much so that it cannot be removed. The best we can hope for therefore is to encourage a new generation without this core hatred, but bombing the innocent back to the Stone Age will have the exact opposite effect. There is not a finite number of “bad people” in the world and it is always possible (and very easy) to create more. Before 9/11 these terrorists numbered a few organized groups located mainly in the Middle East with a rable spattering around the world, now there is a worldwide movement. The base for 9/11 was the Middle East. The base for London, Madrid and Bali was in the cities themselves.
With regard to the terrorist activities prior to the 9/11 situation, it is not correct to suggest that there was no justification in the minds of the terrorists. Real or unreal, there was justification, the most prominent being our long term support for Israel over the Palestinians. I am not taking sides or making any suggestions as to who is right or wrong in that conflict, but the perception by the terrorist will be that we are trying to destroy their way of life and kill innocent people in the process. Isn’t it amazing how similar that sounds to our argument for bombing them.
Finally, your comment about industrial/information age verses a pre-agrarian tribal society is also spot-on. So this part of the solution is to, firstly not exacerbate the situation by bombing all civilization out of them, and secondly to eventually nurture a prosperous society that will eventually over a generation begin to move through to an information society through education and communication. A true democracy is built from the people up, not from the oppressors down.
Enough said, I’ll step aside now.
It is amazing how much we agree, especially the part about capitulation not working. Almost everything that you have said is spot on, so why don’t we agree that any solution that we undertake should not exacerbate the situation? It is correct to say that they have a core hatred. So much so that it cannot be removed. The best we can hope for therefore is to encourage a new generation without this core hatred, but bombing the innocent back to the Stone Age will have the exact opposite effect. There is not a finite number of “bad people” in the world and it is always possible (and very easy) to create more. Before 9/11 these terrorists numbered a few organized groups located mainly in the Middle East with a rable spattering around the world, now there is a worldwide movement. The base for 9/11 was the Middle East. The base for London, Madrid and Bali was in the cities themselves.
With regard to the terrorist activities prior to the 9/11 situation, it is not correct to suggest that there was no justification in the minds of the terrorists. Real or unreal, there was justification, the most prominent being our long term support for Israel over the Palestinians. I am not taking sides or making any suggestions as to who is right or wrong in that conflict, but the perception by the terrorist will be that we are trying to destroy their way of life and kill innocent people in the process. Isn’t it amazing how similar that sounds to our argument for bombing them.
Finally, your comment about industrial/information age verses a pre-agrarian tribal society is also spot-on. So this part of the solution is to, firstly not exacerbate the situation by bombing all civilization out of them, and secondly to eventually nurture a prosperous society that will eventually over a generation begin to move through to an information society through education and communication. A true democracy is built from the people up, not from the oppressors down.
Enough said, I’ll step aside now.
I'm glad I'm staying out of this one this time.
Chris your right the US made a mistake,,,
They should have gone into Baghdad the first time and taken care of business. Then cleaned house in neighboring countries if they didn't fall in line .
My sisters only son is in Iraq as we speak, his best friend just arrived home with shrapnel through him from a road side bomb and facing many surgeries, he already is asking when can he return to help the Iraq people win a democratic country and freedom. The poison of the liberal press and the stateside democrats that give energy to the enemy to continue to kill thousands of Iraq's own ,in hope of us turning our tail and running ,is only fed more fuel by lost souls that believe in the media and politicians that put their own party in front of their country and the thirst for human freedom.
Offer them a flower, or maybe land, money , or just your hand. You will find yourself headless, or blown to bits, or tortured by Sadam's henchmen, or raped , or gassed by his chemical weapons. If you have a GT40, why not drive there, offer them a ride and a handshake. No hard feelings, the terrorist are just misunderstood. I am sure they can be reasoned with. After all they never attacked us before .The towers were never shaken, ships were never blown up .Buildings were never toppled. In Spain even after they pulled out after the bombing there, they tried to wipe out thier parliment in another attack.
Must have been a mistake,,, a logistics problem.
I'm glad I'm staying out of this one,,, and I wont be back to off topics ,,,or the forum for a while , nothing personal,,, oh one other thing did I forget to mention my sisters son is in Iraq on top a humvee,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Chris your right the US made a mistake,,,
They should have gone into Baghdad the first time and taken care of business. Then cleaned house in neighboring countries if they didn't fall in line .
My sisters only son is in Iraq as we speak, his best friend just arrived home with shrapnel through him from a road side bomb and facing many surgeries, he already is asking when can he return to help the Iraq people win a democratic country and freedom. The poison of the liberal press and the stateside democrats that give energy to the enemy to continue to kill thousands of Iraq's own ,in hope of us turning our tail and running ,is only fed more fuel by lost souls that believe in the media and politicians that put their own party in front of their country and the thirst for human freedom.
Offer them a flower, or maybe land, money , or just your hand. You will find yourself headless, or blown to bits, or tortured by Sadam's henchmen, or raped , or gassed by his chemical weapons. If you have a GT40, why not drive there, offer them a ride and a handshake. No hard feelings, the terrorist are just misunderstood. I am sure they can be reasoned with. After all they never attacked us before .The towers were never shaken, ships were never blown up .Buildings were never toppled. In Spain even after they pulled out after the bombing there, they tried to wipe out thier parliment in another attack.
Must have been a mistake,,, a logistics problem.
I'm glad I'm staying out of this one,,, and I wont be back to off topics ,,,or the forum for a while , nothing personal,,, oh one other thing did I forget to mention my sisters son is in Iraq on top a humvee,,,,,,,,,,,,,
London is no stranger to bombs going off - it's only the last couple of years that the IRA ceased planting devices. After 30 or so years of our military in Ireland and their bombs in London it finally got sorted, the polititions decided to talk regardless of whether bombs were going off.
Maybe if we had got our military to just flatten the whole of Ireland in the early 70's (Only 4 million people) we could have avoided the casualties on both sides over the 30 years. Obviously we would have needed to round up all of the Irish living around the world - oh and maybe their families, what about friends ?
The nutters that planted the IRA bombs are all now walking free - they seem to have stopped bombing ,I wonder why this is ? are they still nutters ?
It would seem that both sides have learn't to coexist and that purely attacking the country involved only aggrivates the situation. It wasn't a few blokes from the middle east with bombs ,that came to London and set them off - these animals live and work here ,flattening their homeland will not change anything.
Maybe if we had got our military to just flatten the whole of Ireland in the early 70's (Only 4 million people) we could have avoided the casualties on both sides over the 30 years. Obviously we would have needed to round up all of the Irish living around the world - oh and maybe their families, what about friends ?
The nutters that planted the IRA bombs are all now walking free - they seem to have stopped bombing ,I wonder why this is ? are they still nutters ?
It would seem that both sides have learn't to coexist and that purely attacking the country involved only aggrivates the situation. It wasn't a few blokes from the middle east with bombs ,that came to London and set them off - these animals live and work here ,flattening their homeland will not change anything.
I was going to stay out of this but…
By all means ferret out the perpetrators of the London bombings and similar acts and punish them to the fullest extent the law will allow, but let’s not tar everyone with the same brush. I think we all need to remember that the vast majority of the worlds’ people, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are peaceful, reasonable, ordinary folk. Yes, my heart goes out to all those affected by the tragedy in London, but it also goes out to all the innocent victims being killed every day in Iraq, Somalia, Angola and so on, and so on.
By all means ferret out the perpetrators of the London bombings and similar acts and punish them to the fullest extent the law will allow, but let’s not tar everyone with the same brush. I think we all need to remember that the vast majority of the worlds’ people, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are peaceful, reasonable, ordinary folk. Yes, my heart goes out to all those affected by the tragedy in London, but it also goes out to all the innocent victims being killed every day in Iraq, Somalia, Angola and so on, and so on.
Did you ever notice that as soon as the Palastinians(sp?) found they were going to get some of the things they wanted, the bombings stoped???? Until the Muslim leaders step up and condim these acts, they will continue and innocent people will bear the brunt. Their hatred of the west and their radicalism of their faith, make negotiation an imposibility. It will require the clerics, Mullas and heads of state(read Muslim) to be the ones to reign these terrorist in. Notice how Tony and George are the only heads of state to make the news about how horrible this is. Until they stand up to them, we will have to be very vigilant.
Bill
Bill
My condolences to all involved.
Freddy,
Your ant analogy hit the nail on the head! Unless we can specifically root out the individuals responsible WITHOUT killing innocent civilians in the process, I think that the so called war on terrorism will create more terrorists each day than we can possibly eliminate. The rate of enlistment
into terrorist ranks hasn't slowed any with our current tactics, and the source of enlistees is nearly infinite, like FF's ants.
If there's a better way to get the job done, without all the collateral damage(human & political), I'm all ears!
I'm sure that all of the peaceful, innocent civilians of the Middle East would agree. Something needs to be done, but there HAS to be a better way!
[ QUOTE ]
Ever tried peacefully coexisting with a maniac?
[/ QUOTE ]
Pete,
It's obvious that you've never met my wife on PMS! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Bill
Freddy,
Your ant analogy hit the nail on the head! Unless we can specifically root out the individuals responsible WITHOUT killing innocent civilians in the process, I think that the so called war on terrorism will create more terrorists each day than we can possibly eliminate. The rate of enlistment
into terrorist ranks hasn't slowed any with our current tactics, and the source of enlistees is nearly infinite, like FF's ants.
If there's a better way to get the job done, without all the collateral damage(human & political), I'm all ears!
I'm sure that all of the peaceful, innocent civilians of the Middle East would agree. Something needs to be done, but there HAS to be a better way!
[ QUOTE ]
Ever tried peacefully coexisting with a maniac?
[/ QUOTE ]
Pete,
It's obvious that you've never met my wife on PMS! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Bill
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Bill, the difference between a wife with PMS and a terrorist
is.....you can negotiate with a terrorist! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
is.....you can negotiate with a terrorist! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
unless the terrorist is a woman with pms !!!
As someone who lost a close relative (my cousin Jeff) on
9/11 in the WTC, all I can say is my heart and thoughts go
out to all of those families who have either lost someone,
are still waiting to hear, and/or lived through the bombings
in London. The same sentiments go out (rather belatedly) to
those affected by the Madrid bombings.
I am not going to leap into the political foray, I just had
a recent coversation with a woman whose oldest son is in
Iraq (he's home on leave as of yesterday), and suffice it to
say, we agreed on many points, including getting the hell
out of Iraq and imposing our western ideals without any
attempt to modify them to address eastern values.
I will say this - unifying Iraq into a representative
democracy is a long uphill battle, and we should have
learned from Yugoslavia - splitting Iraq up into 3
affiliated states according to ethnicity would have been
a more logical solution.
Ian
9/11 in the WTC, all I can say is my heart and thoughts go
out to all of those families who have either lost someone,
are still waiting to hear, and/or lived through the bombings
in London. The same sentiments go out (rather belatedly) to
those affected by the Madrid bombings.
I am not going to leap into the political foray, I just had
a recent coversation with a woman whose oldest son is in
Iraq (he's home on leave as of yesterday), and suffice it to
say, we agreed on many points, including getting the hell
out of Iraq and imposing our western ideals without any
attempt to modify them to address eastern values.
I will say this - unifying Iraq into a representative
democracy is a long uphill battle, and we should have
learned from Yugoslavia - splitting Iraq up into 3
affiliated states according to ethnicity would have been
a more logical solution.
Ian
Chris Kouba
Supporter
I thought you said you were going to stay out of the politics...
