Just don't forget the Millennials - they getting older too right now. They have then more disposable income (not the ones with a liberals arts 2yr degree hehe), they can't and want not to build a car - as said before, they write a check.
Good for the builders among us. I see myself busy the next 10 years...
Good for the builders among us. I see myself busy the next 10 years...
Howard Jones
Supporter
20 somethings? You mean in the 70s. I can't remember the 70s...……………………...but I think my first wife was in there some where...………………..
I don't want to sound negative on the hobby. With all the high quality manufactures out there now and all the new money coming out of the markets I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't MORE "self assembled" cars sold in the next 10 year verses the last 10. I just think that GT40's are attractive to a small segment of that customer base.
The good news is they are among the more complex of the self build cars available today, which will mean that there are less well done car available for sale used. That alone will hold prices up I think.
I don't want to sound negative on the hobby. With all the high quality manufactures out there now and all the new money coming out of the markets I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't MORE "self assembled" cars sold in the next 10 year verses the last 10. I just think that GT40's are attractive to a small segment of that customer base.
The good news is they are among the more complex of the self build cars available today, which will mean that there are less well done car available for sale used. That alone will hold prices up I think.
Ryan, there is a dealer based in Melbourne, goes by the name LJ Performance ( GT 40 – LJ Performance Sportscars ) . I dropped in on an SPF builder yesterday (Southern Highlands, NSW - on my drive Qld-Vic), who has a very well prepared, locally delivered, Gulf coloured Mk1.
It does seem like prices have gone up. It was maybe 10 years ago I bought a very nice CAV mono (#8, or was it #6?) for $52,000 in good condition with about 7,000 miles on it. I put about $5K and some sweat into it, and sold it for $60,000 or thereabouts roughly 5 years ago. Guessing that would be more like an $80K+ car now.
It seems that DIY skills (such as are needed to complete a good GT40 kit) are very scarce with the under 35 crowd. Look at the demographics of this site - I bet the average age is mid-50's. Dads just aren't teaching their kids much in the way of garage/gear-head skills anymore. The kids are more interested in updating their facebook status and taking selfies. Heck, the dads are more interested in cruising the interwebs rather than cruising the kit car. Sure there are lots of exceptions, but the overall trend seems pretty apparent. Kind of sad.
It seems that DIY skills (such as are needed to complete a good GT40 kit) are very scarce with the under 35 crowd. Look at the demographics of this site - I bet the average age is mid-50's. Dads just aren't teaching their kids much in the way of garage/gear-head skills anymore. The kids are more interested in updating their facebook status and taking selfies. Heck, the dads are more interested in cruising the interwebs rather than cruising the kit car. Sure there are lots of exceptions, but the overall trend seems pretty apparent. Kind of sad.
Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
.....and I regret buying. I still have an ear-to-ear grin from driving with you in that wonderful GTD, a rare bird she was!!
Tim
I'm still active in my build but maybe not for long. Over five years now and seems like much more really. I for one would never do it again. It was a lot of fun to me initially. The first couple of years at least. As a kid, I grew up spending many a day at a local race shop where my dad did the welding and engine prep. Building a car like this was something I'd always wanted to do since then. The troubles I've had over the years though (nearly two years getting the powertrain right alone) have worn on me. All of the rework with the electrical which I had "professionals" do since I didn't feel comfortable doing it myself. Maybe others see the problems up front and decide it's not worth the effort. Maybe as others have said, they just don't have the knowledge to try it. Maybe others think the cost just isn't worth the reward. For what I have into this, I could have easy paid for a new GT350 for example. Why would someone spend that much, go though that much effort, and have a car much less reliable then? I know why I wanted to initially loving the car (the ultimate Ford) and thinking I could build a "Ferrari killer" for a fraction of the cost. Don't know if most care that much about it any longer or super cars in general like they used to.
Darrin's experience resulted in me going the SPF route. I've done a few mods (pedal box, master cylinders) and had Dennis do some (roll cage) and I'm installing the powertrain. Going the dry sump route really amped up the complexity. Truth is, it would take me 20% as long to do it the 2nd time, but there's usually not a second time. Hope to have it running late summer.
There are too many reasons for the downturn in the demand for replica GT40's. Price, impracticability, maintainability, and marketability. New 40's cost as much if not more than other high performance cars. Make your own list.
Another issue is the market is getting crowded with suppliers. Have you ever been to SEMA and seen all the manufacturers of rims. Wonder how many of these actually make any money?
Another issue is the market is getting crowded with suppliers. Have you ever been to SEMA and seen all the manufacturers of rims. Wonder how many of these actually make any money?
Thanks Troy,
I am aware that LJ Performance do them here. I was just trying to point out that a price was not listed for the Superformance on the web, neither on the main site or the Australian distributors site that I could find.
Ryan
Rick Merz
Lifetime Supporter
Thank you for the compliment. The ear-to-ear grin is why I love these cars, having a bad day, just go for a ride and life is better. I am going to raise the performance bar a little higher with my RCR build (from my GTD build).
Rick
When I bought my GT, it was pretty difficult to find a production car with the performance potential of a GT40 (less than 2500 lbs wet, 600 bhp), at least without getting into the very pricy supercar territory. Times have changed.
As was pointed out earlier, a new, top of the line Vet will smoke a GT40 in any measurable performance parameter, all the while keeping you in a comfortable, climate-controlled environment, with audio and full dealership support. Not a lot of people will sacrifice all that for the sake of historical accuracy.
Just recently, a local Chevy dealer and car collector I know bought a new SPF MkII instead of a Ferrari or some other exotic. He lasted 6-8 months before sending it back to Irvine to be sold on.
I'd say with all of the other similarly priced performance options, the market for these is shrinking by the day.
As was pointed out earlier, a new, top of the line Vet will smoke a GT40 in any measurable performance parameter, all the while keeping you in a comfortable, climate-controlled environment, with audio and full dealership support. Not a lot of people will sacrifice all that for the sake of historical accuracy.
Just recently, a local Chevy dealer and car collector I know bought a new SPF MkII instead of a Ferrari or some other exotic. He lasted 6-8 months before sending it back to Irvine to be sold on.
I'd say with all of the other similarly priced performance options, the market for these is shrinking by the day.
Do you know the specific reason/reasonS he parted company with it?
One would think he'd have at least sat in one and most likely ridden in one before he bought his...so he ought to have been aware of the space/comfort/VAC efficiency/noise level 'realities' one experiences in a '40.
'Just curious...
Charlie Farley
Supporter
Ron,
I agree with you to a point.
However, I disagree with your assertion that the market is shrinking.
Are less Dad's and their offspring coming up to you in parking lots and at shows, firing questions at you left, right and centre ?
Are less people pulling along side you on the freeway, hanging out of the windows shooting photos and videos ?
The answer to both of those is no. You only need a conversion rate of 1% of those interested, that actually delve into the market, to have a healthy and consistently replenished customer base.
The 40 is clear even to those who aren't particularly interested in cars to be of interest.
It's like a beautiful women's body, instantly recognisable. You don't know her name, you don't frankly care... the 40 just ticks all the boxes that excite car lovers.
I was going to say more, infact rip the market open, but I will save that for another day.
I agree with you to a point.
However, I disagree with your assertion that the market is shrinking.
Are less Dad's and their offspring coming up to you in parking lots and at shows, firing questions at you left, right and centre ?
Are less people pulling along side you on the freeway, hanging out of the windows shooting photos and videos ?
The answer to both of those is no. You only need a conversion rate of 1% of those interested, that actually delve into the market, to have a healthy and consistently replenished customer base.
The 40 is clear even to those who aren't particularly interested in cars to be of interest.
It's like a beautiful women's body, instantly recognisable. You don't know her name, you don't frankly care... the 40 just ticks all the boxes that excite car lovers.
I was going to say more, infact rip the market open, but I will save that for another day.
Just my $02 here....
My impression is that the market for GT40 kits (ie. build from a kit) is not growing overall....due to diminishing hands on car building skills (not check writing skills) across the generations. I know not one dad (other than me) who is hanging in the garage and passing on gearhead skills to their children. The kids....and the dads....seem to be glued to the internet/games/social media crap instead. Hence the buyers of kits are diminishing in numbers.
In contrast, it seems the market for finished cars is keeping the price up of finished cars pretty well. Where you may have been able to get a decent CAV or SPF 10 years ago for say $70-90K, the same GT40 today is more like $100-120K. Same underlying reason - more buyers of finished cars because fewer people have the skills or inclination to complete a build.
As far as comparisons to other high performance cars out there, such as a corvette, it's just not a valid comparison. Completely different profile, both of the buyer and the car. Said another way, nobody is seriously stacking up a GT40 against a new vette in an apples to apples choice of which go-fast car to buy....when they want to go fast.
My impression is that the market for GT40 kits (ie. build from a kit) is not growing overall....due to diminishing hands on car building skills (not check writing skills) across the generations. I know not one dad (other than me) who is hanging in the garage and passing on gearhead skills to their children. The kids....and the dads....seem to be glued to the internet/games/social media crap instead. Hence the buyers of kits are diminishing in numbers.
In contrast, it seems the market for finished cars is keeping the price up of finished cars pretty well. Where you may have been able to get a decent CAV or SPF 10 years ago for say $70-90K, the same GT40 today is more like $100-120K. Same underlying reason - more buyers of finished cars because fewer people have the skills or inclination to complete a build.
As far as comparisons to other high performance cars out there, such as a corvette, it's just not a valid comparison. Completely different profile, both of the buyer and the car. Said another way, nobody is seriously stacking up a GT40 against a new vette in an apples to apples choice of which go-fast car to buy....when they want to go fast.
Pat
Supporter
In my opinion the GT40 market peaked in the 2001-2005 range and there are a lot of contributing factors.
-The boomers that remember the cars on Wild World of Sports thundering around Sebring and LeMans reached their peak earning years while they were still young enough to take on the daunting task of a build. That generation still had the vestiges of the hot rod culture with the requisite hands on skills required.
-As Cliff pointed out, the price points for these cars were still in the "wife's OK with it if I get the kitchen remodeled" price range. Now, the numbers are getting to the point that the financially comfortable hobbyist may opt for the nice boat or vacation home in the mountains instead. Personally, I think there is a psychological barrier at $100K that simply puts people off.
-The wait time for a new build coupled with the lack of a dealer networks stocking complete cars limits the converting the desire to own into a purchase commitment. The notion of buying a car you haven't seen for well over six figures simply puts a lot of people off. When I bought my CAV over a dozen years ago there were THIRTEEN CAV dealers in the USA and the one that sold me my car had TWO on the floor. Had I not seen the car, driven the car and fallen in love with the car, it would have remained a fantasy of ownership and my money probably would have gone to a Porsche or Lotus. (I must admit, if I ever see a rust free 1973 Porsche 911 in original Viper Green, my '40 may quickly be in the for sale section of the forum).
-The next generation of "car guys" is a fraction of what it used to be. They are now willing to spend the money on a PayStation Pro 4 or hot gaming desktop computer that kids back in the day would have spent on a four wheeled fixer upper that they could take to school and the freedom of owning your own ride. (That said, I suspect you won't hear too many top 40 pop songs about your sweet Dell XPS Tower Edition with hyper graphics 3D.) The SCCA struggles for new members and event participants but the New York Comic Con reportedly attracted more than 130,000 attendees over four days, Comic-Con International, had to cap attendance because of space limitations. I can't imagine trying to impress my future wife with my new cool phone app instead of my Dad's '69 Camaro.
-I still like to build model cars. The local hobby shop opened in 1946. The owner told me that I was the only one to purchase a model kit in the previous six months and their bread and butter RC airplane business is no longer enough to make ends meet. They struggled to sell ready to fly drones in competition with the online sellers. They closed last march.
Times are changing and perhaps passing our hobby by (or should I say bye)...
-The boomers that remember the cars on Wild World of Sports thundering around Sebring and LeMans reached their peak earning years while they were still young enough to take on the daunting task of a build. That generation still had the vestiges of the hot rod culture with the requisite hands on skills required.
-As Cliff pointed out, the price points for these cars were still in the "wife's OK with it if I get the kitchen remodeled" price range. Now, the numbers are getting to the point that the financially comfortable hobbyist may opt for the nice boat or vacation home in the mountains instead. Personally, I think there is a psychological barrier at $100K that simply puts people off.
-The wait time for a new build coupled with the lack of a dealer networks stocking complete cars limits the converting the desire to own into a purchase commitment. The notion of buying a car you haven't seen for well over six figures simply puts a lot of people off. When I bought my CAV over a dozen years ago there were THIRTEEN CAV dealers in the USA and the one that sold me my car had TWO on the floor. Had I not seen the car, driven the car and fallen in love with the car, it would have remained a fantasy of ownership and my money probably would have gone to a Porsche or Lotus. (I must admit, if I ever see a rust free 1973 Porsche 911 in original Viper Green, my '40 may quickly be in the for sale section of the forum).
-The next generation of "car guys" is a fraction of what it used to be. They are now willing to spend the money on a PayStation Pro 4 or hot gaming desktop computer that kids back in the day would have spent on a four wheeled fixer upper that they could take to school and the freedom of owning your own ride. (That said, I suspect you won't hear too many top 40 pop songs about your sweet Dell XPS Tower Edition with hyper graphics 3D.) The SCCA struggles for new members and event participants but the New York Comic Con reportedly attracted more than 130,000 attendees over four days, Comic-Con International, had to cap attendance because of space limitations. I can't imagine trying to impress my future wife with my new cool phone app instead of my Dad's '69 Camaro.
-I still like to build model cars. The local hobby shop opened in 1946. The owner told me that I was the only one to purchase a model kit in the previous six months and their bread and butter RC airplane business is no longer enough to make ends meet. They struggled to sell ready to fly drones in competition with the online sellers. They closed last march.
Times are changing and perhaps passing our hobby by (or should I say bye)...
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Rick Merz
Lifetime Supporter
Well I think that it is a valid comparison and I like and own both cars so I will compare them apples to apples even with the ac on.
I am finishing my RCR40 625/620 so we will see soon enough since I am going to take both to the Texas mile and the 1/4 mile drag. ZO6 time/speed in 1/4 mile from mag article, "The great American yardstick of acceleration will always be 1/4-mile elapsed times and team Corvette didn’t disappoint, claiming a 10.95-second time in the 8-speed with the 7-speed manual clocking a 11.2, both with identical 127mph", I can tell you that my GTD with 450hp did the 1/4 mile in 11.4 @ 132mph with a roll out start (so that I wouldn't hurt my transaxle). I did that with 200hp less than the ZO6. I have no doubt that I will spank my ZO6 with my RCR40 in both the mile and 1/4 mile runs (RCR40 has a 1,000lb advantage). Rick
Well I think that it is a valid comparison and I like and own both cars so I will compare them apples to apples even with the ac on.
Rick
2019 ZR1: 0-60 mph 2.85 seconds, quarter-mile in 10.6 seconds @ 134...100 mph in 6.0 seconds flat according to multiple car rags...
My guess is those times were achieved with an automatic?
