RCR #010 Build Progress

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks for the input Bill. I also have a slight incline to my drive way and I had Fran ad the SLC style lift system to my RCR40. So it looks like I made the right decision getting it after all.

Now try to enjoy this car for a while and post lots of pictures for us to enjoy of your car.:thumbsup:
Yeah, I had the to do the 2x4" planks to get it in my driveway too, show some pics of the lift system, what is it?

And Bill, looking good, just ditch the Webers toss a 4bbl on it and your all done ;), hopefully the starter is an easy fix.

Sandy
 
Took Randy's (Big Foot) suggestion and tied a rope between the GT40 and my truck. I had Diane pull me to 20MPH, I released the clutch in 2nd gear, and it started. But then it died. Amazingly, it started!!??

Drove around the block and into the driveway. As I was 1/2 into the garage, the &(&^&**&$#%$ car died again!!!

I was able to push the -censored- into the garage, but now my back is killing me.

Now it will sit in the garage for a looooooooooong time
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Supporter
Bill

Don't lose the faith
Pull the starter motor and check it "off" the car

Could be a number of things but it will show if you are dropping voltage before the starter (Master switch not making enough contact?) Poor Terminal on the battery / starter?

Then check bendix is lubricated and engages / kickes in properly
After that it is just making sure the cogs engage on the flywheel.

One step at a time and yes these things are frustrating!

Push start is always possible I know Mike and I became Desmond's starter motor for a Le Mans Trip (Like fr about 600 miles including hotel and track work) - got it down to a 6 foot push and dump clutch in 1st - started every time.

And yes it may cost a few $ but to get the car running with a 4 barrel to iron the bugs out could be agood thing then fit the Webbers when all else (Or Most )is working.

Ian
 
Bill,

On the starter, switch to a late model starter with the solenoid on the starter. These are permanent magnet starters and have more torque and from my experience have less problems. They are also smaller and sometimes fit into tight spots easier. If you don't want to get rid of your separate solenoid that's probably mounted up at the fire wall, just run a short jumper wire from the battery lug on the starter solenoid to the little solenoid post of the starter solenoid. This will make it work just like the old style Ford starter.

BTW the late model starters were available for the 5.0L Explorers and I believe the last couple of years they put a 5.0L in the mustangs.

Jim
 
Bill,

On the starter, switch to a late model starter with the solenoid on the starter. These are permanent magnet starters and have more torque and from my experience have less problems. They are also smaller and sometimes fit into tight spots easier. If you don't want to get rid of your separate solenoid that's probably mounted up at the fire wall, just run a short jumper wire from the battery lug on the starter solenoid to the little solenoid post of the starter solenoid. This will make it work just like the old style Ford starter.

BTW the late model starters were available for the 5.0L Explorers and I believe the last couple of years they put a 5.0L in the mustangs.

Jim
Thanks Jim
I am using a PMGR style starter. I have the B+ cable going from the battery to the large terminal on the starter solenoid. I have a small wire going from the remote starter solenoid to the small terminal on the starter solenoid
 
That's amazing that your having problems, these are usually extremely trouble free from my experiences.

Just out of curiosity are these aftermarket starters or OEM starters?

Jim
 
The first was a Ford Racing mini-starter. The second was a PMGR starter from PA Performance. It came with a life time warranty. Some others feel the starter is staying engaged after it starts, resulting in the gear reduction burning up.
 
. Some others feel the starter is staying engaged after it starts, resulting in the gear reduction burning up.
that's very possible. To verify put a stethoscope on the gear reduction after starting. A stuck engagement would make a lot of racket with a stethoscope. You could even loosen the starter mount bolts just a bit and re-check to see if it disengages after starting. Or just loosen the bolts and push the starter away from the ring gear and re-tighten the bolts (if there's any play in the mounting)

To check/set the clearance make a spacer from steel sheet (ferrous) like a "U" shape that's long enough to hold the pinion in the fully extended position. It wraps around the shaft and is able to slip on from the side without any dis-assembly of the starter (other than removing it from the car). In other words you're holding the gear in the engaged position. Now set the starter in position on the bell housing but unbolted. Now you should be able to feel if the gear is binding.

You may have to elongate the starter mount holes just a bit. Then bolt up the starter, flush but not tight, with the spacer on the pinion and rock it into position till you feel the pinion hit then back it off just a bit. Don't know how a ZF is set up if you can visual the gear, a business card thickness (approx) is what you want for clearance.

After you've got it right scribe some lineup marks on the starter housing/bell housing.


(make sure to use ferrous metal for the spacer, if it pops off and falls down in the bell housing you want to be able to fish it out with a magnet, or secure it with a hoseclamp or tie wrap.)
 
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Thanks Kalun. Some friends have suggested that the momentary pushbutton start switch may be hanging up internally, causing the starter to stay engaged.

With a ZF setup, I can't see inside to see what's going on.

In any case, I will replace the cheap pushbutton switch with a heavy duttu momentary toggle switch.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Supporter
Bill

I'd say that is a good plan.

I know of someone who killed a starter as he used a twist to start key switch and the other keys hanging pulled it enough to kick the ctarter back in. Result the starter disintegrated.

Ian
 
Bill,what does the starter do if you remove it and just lay it on the floor(hold it steady under your foot) and connect up cables to it,motor connection and soleniod direct(not your remote one)?Does the gear try to move out and engage?Have you tried running a ground cable from under one of the starter bolts directly back to the battery?Finally,is there any evidence that the gears actually are disintegrating,as having it quit,then work again sounds like connections,not mechanical issues.Wish I lived closer so I could help. As was mentioned,one step at a time,you'll get through it.
 
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Bill,what does the starter do if you remove it and just lay it on the floor(hold it steady under your foot) and connect up cables to it,motor connection and soleniod direct(not your remote one)?Does the gear try to move out and engage?Have you tried running a ground cable from under one of the starter bolts directly back to the battery?Finally,is there any evidence that the gears actually are disintegrating,as having it quit,then work again sounds like connections,not mechanical issues.Wish I lived closer so I could help. As was mentioned,one step at a time,you'll get through it.
The starter spins but doesn't engage. The internals are shot. This is #2. Sadly this project has lost all its fun. Now it's just a headache that won't go away
 
darkest before dawn

best never easy

etc etc

these starters are more or less a multi application fit, therefore the mount dimensions may not be 100% accurate. Production tolerance stack-up among different brand bell housings, starter mount flanges, and ring gears.

Quick and dirty you could probably get away with forcing the starter in the "away from flywheel" direction with a prybar as you tighten the bolts. Just enough to give it the clearance it needs to be right

the key is listening with the stethoscope at first start. In lieu of a stethoscope a long thin screwdriver will work. Touch the end of the screwdriver where you want to listen and rest the handle against your ear. Make a fist holding the handle firmly and resting your fist (to block out ambient noise) and the handle against your ear.

If you suspect the starter button, disable spark/fire, and turn over the starter repeatedly seeing if you can get it to stick.

You may also be able to hear the pinion snap back. Listen to it out of the car and then, spark/fire disabled, have someone engage the starter and listen for it to snap back when it's bolted up.

You may also be able to diagnose by turning the engine over by hand.

First turn the engine over by hand with starter disengaged. Then crank the starter (fire disabled) and, if it sticks, manual turning the engine should feel different, it should be way harder and you will hear the starter being turned by the flywheel.

Something you have to think about also, the sticking may be intermittent. In that case a verification of the clearance with a visual or "slotted mounts and movement" may be the best way to go.

A flexible bore scope is what you really need. Snap-on or Matco will allow a trial use if you can convince them you may purchase. I've got a Matco on loan right now, too bad I'm not close by.
 
I disassembled the first starter today and found this:



The lever that pushes the starter gear into the flywheel. As you can see, it's all shredded. What could possibly cause this? he second stater will likely be the same since it's doing the same thing
 
Found the problem today. I have a 164-tooth flywheel and the starters are for a 157-tooth flywheel

From the web:


We have all seen the references such as “this starter fits manual transmissions, and that starter fits automatic transmissions” or “auto starters fit T-5 transmissions” etc. Hopefully, I can shed some light on this subject and make it less confusing.

As we look at the two starters (910-67430 Auto & 910-67433 Manual) we see that the AUTO unit has a 2 bolt flange, and the MANUAL unit has a 3 bolt flange that bolts onto the transmission (or bellhousing). While this seems to be the big difference, actually each starter can be bolted on to the opposing trans.

However, the big difference is the depth of engagement of the starter drive. The AUTO starter drive protrudes 3/8” deeper into the bellhousing than the MANUAL starter. The MANUAL starter drive is actually recessed into the starter mount housing. This is because the starter ring gear on the auto trans flexplate is positioned farther aft into the bellhousing (away from the engine) than does the starter ring on the old manual transmission flywheels.

When measured, the distance from the rear face of the engine block to the aft edge of the starter ring is approximately .800 in. The starter ring is .375 thick, thus the forward edge of the starter ring is approximately .430 aft of the rear face of the engine block. All of the frequently used auto trans flexplates, whether 157 tooth or 164 tooth, follow this nominal dimension +or- .035.

For the manual transmission starters the dimension from the back of the engine block to the aft edge of the ring gear on the flywheel is .420 in, the starter ring is still .375, which leaves the forward edge of the ring gear only .050 aft of the engine block. HOWEVER, this only applies to the old large diameter (141⁄8” dia) 164 tooth flywheels! On the small diameter (13¼” dia)157 tooth flywheels the backspacing is the same as with auto trans flexplates. So, a starter for manual transmissions will not work with the 157 tooth manual transmission flywheel, even though it could be bolted to the engine.

The majority of the late model applications using the T-5 five speed transmission used the small 157 tooth flywheel, hence we see starters designated for a “5 speed manual trans”, it is not actually the transmission, but the diameter of the flywheel (and subsequent ring gear backspacing) that dictates the AUTO starter be used. It has nothing to do with a 3,4,5 or 10 speed trans, it is all about the flywheel that they are using.

FORD STARTER / FLYWHEEL TECH TIPS

Auto starter Manual starter
Notice in this pic of the flywheels (placed crank end down on the table), the difference in ring gear spacing. The large 164 tooth flywheel is on the left. The starter ring gear is located toward the engine side of the flywheel, on the 157 tooth flywheel on the right, the ring gear is spaced more toward the transmission side of the flywheel. If a customer is using the complete T-5 setup from some late model application (flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, and trans) then they will need the AUTO starter. However, if they are using some hybrid combination of parts that may include perhaps an old truck or S-10 5 speed trans or some other combination in which the large 164 tooth flywheel is used, then they will need the MANUAL trans starter. When working with one of these customers, just ask which flywheel they will be using to determine which starter to sell them. With a 164 tooth flywheel use the manual starter, with a 157 tooth flywheel use the auto starter.

If the AUTO starter is installed with a 164 tooth manual flywheel, the starter will be continuously engaged with the flywheel, and will destroy the starter as soon as the engine starts. If the MANUAL starter is used with the small 157 tooth flywheel (or flexplates) the teeth will not engage the flywheel ring, or if it does engage it will only catch the very end of the teeth and cause damage to the flywheel.

I will order a 164-tooth starter Monday morning
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Bill, glad you got this figured out and hopes this solves the problem for you. (I had something similar with a well-known race supplier who sold me "Ford flywheel bolts" without bothering to ask anything else about what they were going on. I didn't know any better either and ended up stripping the flywheel holes, which were metric, with my USA bolts. Now I shop with Summit.) This thread has also motivated me to check my engine and starter combination to make SURE they are correct for each other. Getting a starter in and out of a GT40 is not easy. The Cobra is duck soup by comparison.
 
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