Reverse Brake Bleeding

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Basically, I have a Corvette braking system: 88-92 rear brakes and 85-87 fronts and a Corvette master cylinder. Since the rears are swapped side-for-side, the bleeders are below the banjos. My question is "can I use a MitiVac or similar tool to pump the fluid (Silicone) from the caliper up to the master to remove the air. On my neighbor's race bike that is the only way to bleed his front brake properly, but this doesn't mean I can. I have always bled brakes the old fashioned way: using my wife's wonderful legs ;-)
 
Take em off and put a piece of wood in between the pads to hold them open. Turn the bleeder up and bleed as you normally would. The hand held vacuum pump will not get all of the air out.

To make it a little faster get you a set of Speedbleeders. Try Speedbleeder.com or you can order them from Summitracing.com . I put them on everything I build or own. Great little devices.

Shane
 
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Thanks Shane! Thats exactly what I have been doing tonight. As to speed bleeders, I have had them on my bookmarks list since somebody mentioned them on the 3SI list server three years ago, but I never went there. They sounded cool, so thanks for the testimonial; I will pick up a set or three. (3SI = 3000GT/Stealth International) I have a similar issue with the clutch slave since the Porsche G50 is inverted; do you think they will have them for the slave as well?
 
I am not sure that silicone fluids are the best to use. I have heard that they particulate (is this a word
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) out if the car is not used often. I also heard that their wet boiling point is not as high as conventional fluids. I also heard that Dan Gurney was using the stock Ford fluid with his more recent racing efforts (developed during the GT40 program
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).

This is all a rumor
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Do others here have experience with the Silicone fluids vs the stock Ford high performance?

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: CCX33911 ]
 
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OK, sounds like I screwed up. I liked the fact that it wouldn't draw moisture like the standard types which are water soluble. What should I flush the system with to remove the silicone based fluid??
 
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CCX33911,
confirm that, I used silicone fluid in my scarab 240Z, it was a sunday driver. The fluid "separated". It was like 2 different fluids that wouldn't mix. Like ATF and muddy water sort of.
 
Before you move too quickly, can I ask the people who have had problems how long ago they used silicon fluid and what type it was. In recent years quite a lot of motorcyclists use it. Usually the motivation is that it is typically dot 5 rated and it doesn't damage paint if you spill it. Bikes are often low usage vehicles as well. I have never heard of these problems before. I have it in my unfinished GT40 as well it has been there for a year without the car being driven at all and I have not seen any separation. I am using a Shell Motorcyle fluid. The only problem I have identified is that it inclined to foam if you pump too hard when you bleed the system.

Regards

John
 
Hi Guys, I have book somewhere around here that discusses fluids. I'll find it and post the name for all. However, from what I remember, silicone brake fluid is pretty good stuff for MOST people, that being it is not anhydrous, and it does not damage paint. Great for infrequently used cars. However, when heated to extreme temperatures, i.e, under true racing conditions it gives a mushy pedal. I don't remember if it foams or expands, but it does something you don't want at LeMans when your doing 225 mph. How many of us are going to subject our replica to racing conditions? A lot less than we all think.......I would bet the separate fluid that folks have seen is water in the systems from washing the car,or high humidity storage conditions, becasue water does not dilute the fluid. Flush the system every spring and I doubt you will have the problem.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Brian ]
 
Silicone brake fluid has two advantages of which I am aware:
1. It does not ruin your paint if you spill;
2. It does not attract moisture the way regular brake fluid does.
The first advantage is obvious to anyone who has ever spilled on their new paint job. The second advantage is not quite so obvious. However, if you do not drive your car for long periods of time, you may note that your brake cylinders or calipers begin to develop leaks around the seals. This is the result of moisture being attracted to the residue of brake fluid on the exposed portion of the cylinder bore. Once the moisture is there it begins to form rust right where the rubber seal runs against the bore surface. As soon as you begin to drive car again the leaks start. In the old days this was a common problem among the Corvette crowd. They would solve the problem by having the cylinders bored oversize and relined with a pressed in bronze or stainless steel sleeve. This was an expensive repair, needless to say. A much less expensive solution was the use of silicone brake fluid. The problem was made much more bearable because the silicone fluid did not attract moisture to the cylinder bore. However, you cannot simply drain the old fluid and replace with silicone. You must completely purge the old fluid as the two are not compatible. Silicone is best if used from the start in a fresh new system.
The only disadvantage of which I am aware is that silicone does have a lower boiling temperature. Hence, the problem with its use in high performance applications such as a GT40 might encounter. Once it reaches its boiling point, you get the squishy pedal feel. Also, if you are driving at high altitudes this could be a problem as the altitude makes the boiling point even lower. You do not want to be descending from Pikes Peak with silicone brake fliud in your system.
Because of its advantages, silicone fluid has been in many of my cars for years. They are stored for long periods of time but are not race cars (I would never use it in a race car). I have not noticed any of the "particulating" problem mentioned by others in this thread, but that is only my experience.
If you want the best of both worlds, do not use silicone brake fluid, but make sure that if your car is going to sit for long periods of time, you at least pump your brake pedal a few times every day or two. That will minimize the corrosion problem. Then all you have to worry about is avoiding the spills. Of course it wouldn't hurt to reline your cylinder bores also, but that is only if you have nothing else to do.
 
Brian

I can agree with your assesment of moisture entry as the resevoirs on the E are not capped that incredibly well. That said if you regularly flush either I'm sure is fine but I prefer the pedal feel of the LMA
 
I use silicon in all my vehicles, both brakes and hydraulic clutches. Have for years, motorcycle (brakes only) and cars both. I've read the problem with it for racing use is that since it doesn't absorb water, if water does indeed get into the system, and you get the brakes good and hot, the water boils introducing air bubbles into the sytem. Mushy pedal. Since I don't race, I don't find that to be an issue.

Historically, my problem has been keeping the pistons in the calipers free from corrosion. While the silicon does indeed keep the inside of the pistons corrosion free, I still get some on the outside of the piston, under the dust boot. Can't win them all I guess.

Dave
 
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OK, everyone is right to an extent. Water does not mix with silicone so will pool in low spots. If this is the caliper, a low spot indeed, and it boils-> instant vapor in the lines. Also it can cause rapid corrosion where pooled. However, how does the water get there: through rubber hoses and rubber covers on the reservoirs. As long as the system is kept topped, condensation is NOT a concern. The use of stainless braid, teflon tube brake lines will negate much of the water absorbtion. The big thing I didn't know is that Silicone fluids also contain about 3X as much dissolved air as glycol fluids and are about 2X more compressible, which may cause a spongy pedal feel, cause aeration when forced through small orifices, and make bleeding more difficult. No matter what you use, you should replace at least every couple of years. If you use racing fluid you should change it like you would change oil in a street car according to several articles I found.
 
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I have to agree with the boiling point assesment on road cars, but it isn't really all that much lower: most rate it at just a touch over 500 degreee(dry). Like I said this isn't that much lower that many DOT 3/4 fluids, at least, not enough for me to worry about it.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
I've got speed bleeders on two of my bikes, they are wonderful. I plan to fit them on the PBR calipers as well since they really do a good job. You can get them in just about all types of threads to fit most anything.

R
 
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