RF Situation - A bit of information related to other posts

Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Chris

The problem is that there is apparently a major discrepancy
between the desposits made and RF's balance sheet.
The money seems to have been spent without cars produced.
In fact it "appears" Robert didn't even place build orders
for many of the cars for which he took deposits.

MikeD
 

John B

Temp Selling Pass
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

If that is true. Bankruptcy laws can not protect him. This has elevated to outright Fraud!
oliver
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

I will have to agree with Oliver of this one. This is fraud and a criminal act.
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

I'll go back to a word that I used the last time I posted on this topic a few weeks ago, a word that was challenged a few times. IMHO, sinister indeed.

Best to all.
 

Keith

Moderator
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

[ QUOTE ]
I'll go back to a word that I used the last time I posted on this topic a few weeks ago, a word that was challenged a few times. IMHO, sinister indeed.

Best to all.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I don't think we've got anywhere near the whole story yet.....
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Hi David Morton, Mike Dozier, Mitch D, Oliver, Pete, Rick, Tim Kay thank you for your kind words.

We are now sailing into calmer waters and the way forward could be good! More to come.

Oliver, I'm happy to take the pics at the factory but would like to get permission from certain people before so doing. At the moment the CAMCO factory is shut pending further developments. It is however not in liquidation nor is there any reason that it should be, which means that I have access at any time.

The Australian liquidator has however contacted Robbie and given him strict instructions that nothing must be touched or moved.

Onwards and forwards,
Andre 40.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Andre
This seems very strange to me

On 01 November Robert posted he was not a shareholder or director

and then on 06 December he posted this "I am glad to say has changed and I have finalised a buy out of all the South African shareholders and will own the South African part of the business 100% within hours"

It could be very worthwhile for the RF Folks to do a full company search and record check of the statutory books and records of CAMCO - these are open to public scrutiny at the registered company office. The Camco operation may be a hidden asset belong to Robert

Of course the December post may have been a smoke screen so do not get your hopes too high until the checking is done

Regards
Ian
 

Keith

Moderator
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

[ QUOTE ]
Andre
This seems very strange to me

Regards
Ian

[/ QUOTE ]

You surely got that right!
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

[ QUOTE ]
The Australian liquidator has however contacted Robbie and given him strict instructions that nothing must be touched or moved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if CAMCO wasn't purchased by RL, the administrators have an interest in the Intellectual Property of RF, which must have formed part or the agreement when the CAMCO deal was struck. If the SA jigs and moulds are shipped out now, even if they are owned by CAMCO, then the perceived IP value of the RF GT40 could go down.
 

Keith

Moderator
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

And of course these are duplicate moulds and jigs to the ones in Australia, so someone could seamlessly start up "RF" production again using this stuff added to which there exist complete parts lists too. For those that know their way around Intellectual Property Laws, who owns the body moulds though? These were developed by a sub-contractor to Camco/RF weren't they and is possession 9 points of the law in this case?

You could end up with 2 rival "RF's" in the future - it's happened before.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

I do remember that Ian and was puzzled by it. I bought it to the attention of the administrators.

On the moulds, I've been told and it has circulated for some time that the Australian moulds are pretty much done, as in used up and should not be used for more bodies. The SA moulds supposedly fixed a lot of problems with the original moulds and produced a more correct body shape and naturally, with little use, are in good shape.

RE: Andre that the liquidator has provided info that nothing should be moved it sounds like they are tallying assets everywhere, as one would expect. I'd expect those cars and frames remaining in SA to be tied up legally for quite some time.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Is it worth doing a property search in South Africa?

If he is selling up in Australia was he setting up in South Africa?

Ian
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Hi Ian, Keith, Rob and Ron,

The suggested purchase of ‘all the shareholders’ of CAMCO ‘ by Robert Logan must have been another pipe dream. With what money? The Joint RF/CAMCO wasn’t even properly funded. The deal was a simple one initially whereby CAMCO would build the cars on behalf of RF and with Robert not being a director or partner. This is normal business practice and could have worked well.

You have my word on a public domain that until today CAMCO is a separate company and not a hidden asset of RF. I also never head of the possibility of Robert selling up in Australia and setting up in Cape Town. We at all times were given to understand that Robert was running a successful GT40 business in Australia, was living in a big house with happy and stable family life, dogs, various cars, and an MV Agusta F4 Senna, etc. At the time it made a great deal of sense for him to retain his business to supply the Australian market and to have the cars built in South Africa, due to a weak rand and exported to the US, the UK and possibly elsewhere.

Yes, the IP rights belong to Logan/RF. This is again normal business practice when another company/country is commissioned by the owner/designer/manufacturer to manufacture products on a sub-contract basis. Rob, good question, in the event of a liquidation what would be the value of those IP rights. Probably nothing as a hard nosed liquidator would sell it all off for 10P in the pound without any emotion. If in the event of a rescue package by someone , even now, purchasing the whole kit and caboodle by settling the creditors he would start up afresh and no doubt gave the GT40 a new name. As I understand the situation it would then be up to him to make new deals and claim to be the new owner of the IP rights.

As is well known on this forum, new chassis and suspension jigs and new production moulds were made, the latter a vast improvement on the panels supplied. Ron, I don’t know the condition of the Australian original moulds nor were we ever told.Robert claimed that he had sold 108 cars with 23 to the US. If I remember correctly GTD pulled about 400 bodies from their original moulds which would be about the maximum for an original set. Perhaps Keith H can confirm.

Yes, should a way be found to get the Cape Town production up and running again and should someone in Australia get RF going again, it’ s entirely possible that there could be RF twins in the hands of new owners.

In my earlier report I mentioned that I was concerned, when I was Robert’s ‘runner’, that there was little activity on the floor. When I suggested that I should do a financial investigation I was told to mind my own business. However, a few days later I was invited by Robert to do such and investigation and discovered the drastic shortage of working capital.

In an attempt to find a further solution I thought that it would make sense for Robert to raise additional capital and set up a new company Roaring Forties SA (Pty) Ltd. I won’t repeat but an extract of an E-mail to him explains my thoughts.Further to my E-mail I suggested that the new RF SA should then use Robbie/CAMCO to supply various parts to him on sub-contract basis. I stick to my guns, had there been sufficient working capital to implement this idea it would have been a most workable solution. It would have effectively separated Robert and Robbie with each feeling that they are kings of their own castles. An accountant was asked to set the wheels in motion to form a new company but as history will tell us that idea went no further. Would I have been credited for that proposal had it gone ahead, you bet your bottom dollar, no.

As matters stand now RF/Logan is a simply an unsecured trade creditor of CAMCO in lieu of monies tranferred and parts supplied.

Best regards,
André 40
 

Keith

Moderator
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Well that fills in a little bit more Andre but why are Camco not listed as creditors? (I may be incorrect on this but a previous thread said this I think. Sorry if i got it wrong). If they are owed X and the stock and jigs worth Y perhaps they balance out? And, in essence, the jigs and parts belong to Camco if they perhaps choose to trade debt for jigs/parts. I am still a bit puzzled as to who has IP over body moulds though.

I am guessing here, but it looks as if there could be no residual value for RF creditors in SA.
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Hi Keith,


What an entangled web!

I'll get some advice from my learned accounting and legal friends and will then respond.

What's happened to Simon Osbourne. I believe he went back to the hotel industry from whence he came before joining GTD.

Regards,
Andre
 

John B

Temp Selling Pass
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

One thing may be possible is that Camco and Robert "STRUCK A DEAL" to persude Camco from being a creditor. HuMMM HIDDEN MONEY.HUMM..maybe! I'm Just guessing. But highly possible. or maybe I'm way off the mark...Or hit the nail on the head. I just don't know!!!

Oliver
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Oliver,

You are stirring the pot again and yes, you are way off the mark!

Please read all my reports again and then read them as one and then you will realise exactly what the situation is.

I've known the whole Cape Town team for several years and I would describe them as loyal, hard working, middle class people with not a dishonest hair on their heads. You are looking at a bunch of people who worked for salaries at well below par in the hope that the CAMCO/RF association
would develop into a successful business.

You are also looking at a bunch of people who feel betrayed and disillusioned and yes there have been tears. What is even more disturbing is that they've heard that South Africa's image as a country has taken a knock because of this situation. Would it be fair if South Africans thought that America was a terrible place because of some large corporation going bust. You can include me in this as Mr Logan's former 'runner', being underpaid for my services and then abused and lied about on the forum, ie his post on me dated November 1. In my E-mail to him in response I threatened to 'have his guts for garters' and keep right out of my way when he next came here.

Under the circumstances your suggestion of a sinister deal is rather insensitive and believe me no deal with Logan would have been remotely possible as available funds were stretched to the limit to inch assembly forward.Had there been spare money to 'hide' it would have rained down from the skies curtesy of The Almighty.

Challenge. Get your butt on to an aircraft seat and come and visit us, but not Pan Am.We don't think America is a lousy place because that once famous airleine no longer exists.Come and meet (not MEAT) the people and then draw your own conclusions. You are welcome to stay at the house and I will take on scenic drives around the Cape Town, now the world's most popular tourist destination.
You'll then be in good company as number 11 to stay. Thanks to my joining www.GT40s.com there have been a well-kown former American racing driver, a former racing driver and crew chief, a well-known English car builder who built a famous racing sports car, a well-known UK forum member, a German Porsche specialist, partner of one of the best known private Porsche entrants. And who, paradoxically do I have to thank for all this, none other than Robert Logan for motivating the creation of www.GT40s.com, which long suffering drove forward.Crazy world!

In the early 1960's Englishman, Roger Holliday, and I were the only English speaking foreigners working at the Porsche factory. We shared an apartment and we both quit in mid-1964, he to move to Bowling Green and he eventually became PRO for the Owens-Corning Chev Corvette racing team.
For the past 17 years he and his wife, Claudia, have been taking a small group of about 20 people on tours mainly to Europe and recently also to Australia. Since then I've been nagging him to visit South Africa and this finally happened in October last year with 20 Americans.First time I had seen
my old buddy in all those years. Guess what, South Africa voted best and most exciting trip ever.
If you want to get first hand information about Darkest Africa where people hide money, give Roger a call. His tour company is appropriatly called the Holliday Group, tel: 419 352 8096, E-mail
[email protected].

Look forward to seeing you in Cape Town. By the way, the invitation is extended to any other forum member. I recently re-named the house THE GT4O HOTEL. My wife asks why as the name has only caused me shit, but then we live in hope!!!!

Best,
Andre 40
 

Andy Sheldon

Tornado Sports Cars
GT40s Sponsor
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

If we are going to talk about IP rights I think some of it may belong to Tornado Sports Cars since it was our product on which Robert Logan based his car.

It was even our car which featured in his sales literature and in adverts. Not very honest on Mr Logans part.

We still have his original, signed order form on file dated Dec 1994.

I would go as far as to say that we are probably owed back pay on all the RF cars produced to date and if anyone should get things going again they would probably owe us IP payments on all future cars.

Our Lawyers are looking very carefully into the situation at this moment in time.

Thanks

Andy
 
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Andy

Looking at the bodywork of both your Tornado and the RF, and seeing the details of Paul W's Tornado build, I can see undoubted similarities between the two cars. I wish you well with your enquiries.

Rob
 

John B

Temp Selling Pass
Re: RF Situation - A bit of information related to other pos

Your right Andre... I was off the mark!! Let me clairify.

You come out of the nowhere after the failure of RF with offers to save the company and portraying yourself as a "RF Victim". You return to the forum distancing yourself from Rf and intigrate youself by posting photo's of another manafacturer's product which is an insult to the RF deposit holders that lost money. You posted more information and photos in one day with the other mamf.car
than you ever did With RF. You washed your hands of the whole Rf situation but the one thing that has not been mention is that you have alot of credibility with members for your long winded post boasting about your relationships with famous people ect. Your "Employment" by Robert did far more than appoint somone local to "REPORT BACK"- it immediatly gave members confidence "EVEN MYSELF" in the SA operation. Or perhaps this is what Robert was trying to achieve. The forum members were right that you owed them somthing more than what you gave them after RF Failed. Your continued silence only confused the issue. You most certainly could have spoken up at the time and said you were leaving (without comment) even only to protect his own reputation which in my opinion now is less than credible.

I think that puts me on the mark and that is what the situation is ...to the point!

Oliver
 
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