Roush engine failure...

[Dave-SPFGT40]

I was supposed to pick up my P2202 from my installer today... He took me for a test drive.... and that was the end... After 10 min of driving as he punched in to 2nd gear there was 3 loud back firing sounds...and the car stalled and would not start again... we pushed the car back to his shop and checked to see if it was.. we noticed that the cam was burnt out. Granted, i know roush covers this under warranty, but I have a problem with parts of this engine being made in China. I have a feeling if the cam was US made this wouldn't have happened. Now i probably have to wait 6 weeks before I can see the car again... , We spend good money for these engines.. we should get the best parts... My main reason for going with a roush engine was for the feeling that I will get the reliability, performance, and reputation that they carry... I am not a mechanic, but can someone tell me if what I'm saying is accurate?

 

[Steve C]

Dave,

Cam as in cam shaft failure?

Failure how...lobes worn down?

Does it have roller or flat tappet lifters? If flat tappett there has been lot's said about removal of needed additives in oil that minimize cam wear from flat tappet lifters but, if a roller that shouldn't be the problem.

Tell us more ...detail of "cam failure"

Steve P2125

 

[Ron Earp]

My main reason for going with a roush engine was for the feeling that I will get the reliability, performance, and reputation that they carry... I am not a mechanic, but can someone tell me if what I'm saying is accurate?

IMHO you're paying a lot for the Roush name. I'm a big fan of supporting smaller more focused engine builders and working with s/he to get the engine you want. You'll pay less, be involved with the process, and hopefully get exactly what you wish.

 

[Dave-SPFGT40]

Dave,

Cam as in cam shaft failure?

Failure how...lobes worn down?

Does it have roller or flat tappet lifters? If flat tappett there has been lot's said about removal of needed additives in oil that minimize cam wear from flat tappet lifters but, if a roller that shouldn't be the problem.

Tell us more ...detail of "cam failure"

Steve P2125

Hi Steve,
According to my installer.. he stated that the hardening in the cam was bad. The cam gears were gone...

Dave

 

[DaveM]

I think most Roush engines are roller cam unless you had something custom done. Don't understand what you mean by cam gears gone and the camshaft was soft? There would be a cam gear bolted to the front of the camshaft for chain drive. There also is a gear that drives the distributor and oil pump. Ford engines can be touchy to stripping the distributor/oil pump shaft if cold with thicker oil. Soft camshafts usually wipe out the lobes. Your claim of Chinese parts may only apply to Eagle rods and crankshaft being forged in China. I am not aware that Roush uses Chinese camshafts. My 427SR runs like a charm and is worth the money. If your installer is ASE or Ford certified Roush should cover you.

 

[Jac Mac]

Sounds mighty like the distributor/oil pump---camshaft gear problem to me. If so its not a chinese problem , but some of your fellow countymen/women that voted/mandated for the removal/lowering of zddp levels from your American Oils that have played a large part in the problem.

 

[mike]

IMHO you're paying a lot for the Roush name. I'm a big fan of supporting smaller more focused engine builders and working with s/he to get the engine you want. You'll pay less, be involved with the process, and hopefully get exactly what you wish.

i agree.
you will also get a stronger engine if you go to a good race engine builder.

 

[Jack]

+1 Ron!

 

[Jack Houpe]

Jac Mac, I think you got it. Hope to hear more.

 

[DaveM]

Good point about the zddp JacMac. Some of the Mobil One's like 5-40W diesel are still pretty high zddp. Guess they waive some of the regs for trucks. Concerning the oil pump/distributor shaft I've always been extra careful to warm up the oil before getting on it

 

[Jac Mac]

One thing I have noted on pics of Roush engines is a tag declaring they are drained of oil prior to shipping with instructions to fill etc prior to startup.
Now in the case of fitting to these cars with oil cooler etc the chance exists for the installer to simply chuck some oil in and fire it up, with the result that until the filter,lines & cooler bleed out. In those few seconds prior to pressure registering on the gauge the cam/dist gears are going to be under load and with virtually no lubrication, that is long enough for metal to metal contact and damage is underway. These two gears are 1 to 1 ratio and the same tooth of one runs against the same of the other, so its a bit like a pothole in the road, gets bigger each time you drive thru it!

The dist or drive unit that I see some Roush stuff has should be removed & the system primed by hand prior to start-up to avoid this possible problem. This applys to any motor thats going to spend some time 'on the shelf', not a bad idea to let the rockers off either, stops moisture etc getting in the cylinders and any young budding mechanics/helpers from dropping spare bits etc down the ports. Saw a pic this week of Allan Englishs new KC motor thats been sitting since dec 08 waiting for its new home-hope some precautions have been taken on that unit.

 

[Al Jones]

Jac Mac,that item concerning the priming of the system is one caution that the Keith Craft staff repeatedly stressed when advising me about engine start up. And especially what you said about an engine that has been sitting a while;for instance, in the crate.

 

[Trevor Booth]

From someone who has worked in China since 1982, dont be misled or put off by a supposed "made in China" syndrome. The problem is with the purchasor of the chinese made product in as much as they have gone for something cheap. Chinese quality is as good as anywhere , it only needs the purchasor to specify want they want in terms of quality and they will get it. Material cost in China is no cheaper or dearer than anywhere in the world, what is cheaper is labour rates, and that is their advantage.
I could take any body to machine shops and manufacturing plants that are clinically clean like a hospital. You would be amazed at the " made in USA" and 'Made in germany" products that have been "made in China" for 20+ years

 

[Grady]

Sounds mighty like the distributor/oil pump---camshaft gear problem to me. If so its not a chinese problem , but some of your fellow countymen/women that voted/mandated for the removal/lowering of zddp levels from your American Oils that have played a large part in the problem.

Those interested in the ZDDP problem...I have several old Mustangs (flat tappet design) that need the additive. I received 6-4oz bottles of ZDDPplus ($57) through NPD a couple of days ago. Use 4 oz per 5 quarts of oil for the flat tappets. It is my understanding, when you use the roller cam setup, there is not a need for the additional zinc as the pressure is reduced on the tappet surface. The ZDDP will destroy the catalytic converter and that is why it was mandated out by the EPA.
I've wondered if it were worth the cost to use oil analysis with some engines. If I had a $35k Ford GT engine I would. I use it on my aircraft engine because I don't want to fall out of the sky some dark night.
Also, I know the Roush people to be fair on engine repair work...and Ron is correct about their name cost but are a lot of the engines out there without a problem.
Grady

 

[Scott Calabro]

Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

 

[Mike]

You would be amazed at the " made in USA" and 'Made in germany" products that have been "made in China" for 20+ years

I hope this is a joke. If true, it is very disturbing news. Wouldn't there be some kind of legal structure in place to prevent this from happning? If I buy a product "made in USA or Germany" I damn well expect the product to be made there.
If I look at a package that says "engineered in Germany", I know what to expect. Its made somewhere else.
But what you are saying is that there is actual fraud going on. Aren't there
some kind of international protections in place to prevent this? I must naieve.

Mike

 

[Jac Mac]

Right, checked back thru Daves posts. Motor is 427R, with following mods: 950HP Carb,Solid Roller Cam & Lifters, Jesel Shaft Rockers,Hi-Vo timing set.
Installer was :Voss Performance, Fullerton Ca.
Pic attached of engine tag I mentioned earlier.( Actually the tag for motor in question)
Gotta say I am slightly amused by the anti-foreign comments on this thread for a car largely built in South Africa with a ZF trans & in this case a car owned by a Textile Importer. ( Are American Textiles not good enough!! ) You would all probably need ten cups of coffee to calm down if you did a part by part search for country of origin.

 

[Russ Noble]

I hope this is a joke. If true, it is very disturbing news. Wouldn't there be some kind of legal structure in place to prevent this from happning? If I buy a product "made in USA or Germany" I damn well expect the product to be made there.
If I look at a package that says "engineered in Germany", I know what to expect. Its made somewhere else.
But what you are saying is that there is actual fraud going on. Aren't there
some kind of international protections in place to prevent this? I must naieve.

Mike

You need to face facts! What nota 2226 has said is completely true, also some good "Made in Japan" stuff too is Chinese sourced!

We live in a global economy where large international companies source parts from all round the world and assemble where ever. Very difficult to be specific about where a complex product is "made".

Nota 2226 is also right about Chinese quality, and bulk purchaser buyer choices. Although I would add the rider that in my opinion Made in China ball bearings are crap. In my business, any items that we buy that we know are fitted with Chinese bearings we strip and replace with good quality non Chinese bearings before putting into use. The reason we do this is because the rest of the product is the best we can buy anywhere, so it is worth the effort.

However I have no doubt it won't be long until the Chinese have addressed this problem.

 

[Ian K]

You would be amazed at the " made in USA" and 'Made in germany" products that have been "made in China" for 20+ years

While I will not argue that there are high quality Chinese products out there,
US Federal Trade Commission has laws regarding the claim "made in USA".
There are "unqualified" claims - which mean that "all or virtually" all of the
product is assembled in the US, and most of the major components that
make up the assembly is made in the US. Further, there can be "qualified"
claims where "made in USA" is claimed, but further qualified with specifics
as to origin of materials, percentage made in US if not "all or virtually all".
In such cases, "made in USA from imported parts" must be used.

So, in other words, "made in USA" by itself pretty much means exactly that
by US Federal Law, at least since 1997 when official guidelines were put to
paper.

Ian

 

[Russ Noble]

I would also add that if Rousch have the confidence to stand behind their product 100% then it doesn't really matter where it is made! But I think this failure is more likely to be attributed to factors Jac Mac has raised than to country of origin of the damaged parts