Safety Equip ?

[Howard Jones]

Heres what happens when a rear suspension lower a arm fails and comes off the car at 100MPH. It went over at least 3 times. Check out the roll cage and roll over bar. Just luck on this one guys.

This is why I call them "it el kill ya parts"

The driver was walking around after the insident and generally OK.

No names or other information for now. But I hope to prompt a discussion on roll over protection and general safety equip. Buy the way compair this car with Ron's T70. Tell me whitch one you would pick to take this flight it.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Looks like it used to be a backdraft based upon the BMW rear lower arm.

Fer sure an "E" ticket ride!

 

[Ron Earp]

I realize debris and so on has been put into the car for storage, but that looks like a mess.

Track day car = full sanctioned cage as far as I am concerned. Not a four point cage, historical cage, roll bar, etc, but a full on racing cage. It isn't easy to do at all in a GT40, and I haven't seen a company provide one as an option, but it is possible and what I'd do if I seriously intended to take a GT40, or other similar car, to the track.

Glad that driver was okay. He certainly took a ride of a lifetime.

 

[Kevin L]

It isn't easy to do at all in a GT40, and I haven't seen a company provide one as an option,

SPF GT40R?

I genuinely don't know that matches the description of a fully sanctioned race car or not, just asking the question.

Kevin

 

[Will Campbell]

I realize debris and so on has been put into the car for storage, but that looks like a mess.

Track day car = full sanctioned cage as far as I am concerned. Not a four point cage, historical cage, roll bar, etc, but a full on racing cage. It isn't easy to do at all in a GT40, and I haven't seen a company provide one as an option, but it is possible and what I'd do if I seriously intended to take a GT40, or other similar car, to the track.

Glad that driver was okay. He certainly took a ride of a lifetime.

This ^^

IMO, track days run cars that are every bit as fast as real race cars. I recently saw a video from a late Z06 that ran 1:17 (he says) at Summit Point. That's just a couple of seconds off the lap record that the SLC set this past summer.

So there is real speed, whether racing or track day.

While I'm not planning to race or track my SLC, I am grateful that the car comes with a 6-point cage as a standard part of the street kit (of course, more elaborate cage options are there for street, track and race). Saves me the effort from having to invent what is already there!

 

[Ron Earp]

SPF GT40R?

I genuinely don't know that matches the description of a fully sanctioned race car or not, just asking the question.

Kevin

While it is "sanctioned" for historical racing, to my knowledge the cage would not pass through SCCA or NASA tech. We have SCCA inspectors on the site though and they could discuss that further, but when it was discussed last year I recall numerous key bars missing.

The advantage that modern cars have over a T70 spyder or a GT40 is that you can pretty much have a full cage in the car and can go largely unnoticed. You could take a Mustang or Camaro and cage it, and with careful design have a passenger seat and still use the car for daily use if you were sort of hard core about it.

 

[Ron Earp]

This ^^

IMO, track days run cars that are every bit as fast as real race cars. !

Hell yes they are, or much faster. Blown Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros, etc. get to high triple digit speeds at VIR, or any track with a decent straight. You don't want to have an off at 175 mph with your bolt in harness bar stock seat.

 

[Cliff Beer]

Any time you get out on a race track you should be mentally prepared for the possibility that it may be the last thing you do. It's not all in your control either - somebody else's poor judgment can easily put you in the hospital, or the mortuary. If you're driving without a full cage, your chances of heading to the mortuary instead of the hospital increase dramatically.

Not only that, the rate of litigation filings over on-track incidents is climbing steadily - this is one reason why fees for track days are going up....the insurance company is passing along the costs to the end user (track day participants) via higher fees. So, not only may you be injured or killed in a track day incident, you (or your estate if you're dead) may end up paying for other's damages as well (property/life/etc.), even if you weren't at fault.

My advice:

1. drive with a full cage,
2. don't drive like an idiot,
3. make sure you're not driving with idiots.

 

[Ron Earp]

Stuff can happen....

VIR Cobra Flip - YouTube

Nobody around, slow part of the track, but still managed to roll that car.

 

[Jeff Young]

I used to track a BMW M Coupe, and then a Lotus Esprit. After racing for a few years, I would not do that again most likely.

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Hmmm Backdraft eh?
A local guy has one that did something fairly similarly not long ago -- the engine sounded really good at full noise tho

 

[Howard Jones]

I think I agree with Ron on the full sanctioned safety equip requirement for at least the "fast" group at most track day events in concept. The problem will be that most cars won't meet them and as sanctioning body rules improve (become more stringent) then the cars become more and more difficult to update. At the least, crash cages and their design could stand a rethink in many cases including open top cars. Fire systems really need to be considered as mandtory in closed cockpit cars like GT40s especially, for obivious reasons. And then there's the question of how fast is fast and WHO is going fast? Lots to think about here, but I am personally really leaning towards a NASA or SCCA license in my future. It wil cost some money, but It would be a lot of fun I supect.

I opened this thread so that we could begin a dialog about the current track day safety issue. Someone at a recent drivers meeting said that a recent Porsche club track day he attended cost $1000 A DAY because of huge increases in insurance costs. He also said that that particular GROUP (not car type so don't flame me) had a costly record of on track "events".

If people start getting badly hurt or worse then the hand writing in on the wall. This form of the hobbie will just dry up due to rental costs/insurance. One way to avoid hurting people is to insist on better safety equip and closer tech inspections. At last years mininats the inspection included lifting each corner of the car to check wheel bearing play along with a relative comprehesive look at the car in comparison to most other open track events I have attended. This was a good thing and didn't cause much of a delay or inconvenience to most people. I bet next year most people will have gotten the message and as a result everybody will benifit.

The car type or driver idenity in the above example really isn't the point. I have no idea HOW the suspension failed. Just that it did. It could have been anything, previous dammage, worn out doner part, marginal design, or even a new part that failed. It happens. What the point is, is, that we all need to have a good look at our cars and do some maintance inspection of "it el kill ya parts" on a appropriate sechedule. Even replace parts based on track time if necessary. Waiting for it to break isn't going to work. I also don't know the owner of the car so of cource I am not commenting specifically on this individual incident or the drivers roll in it.

If this thread serves the purpose of getting people to really prep their cars in light of what clearly CAN HAPPEN then we will have taken at least the first step.

Oh and Cliff hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Jeff Young]

I've certainly seen driving days entry fees go up, more so than race entry fees. I think some of it is insurance but I also think some of it is BMWCCA and PCA and some of the "high end" clubs making more money.

BMWCCA is up to over $500 for a weekend now here in NC, was $200 back in the early part of last decade when I started.

"HPDEs" were something of an unknown to insurance companies back in the late 90s, and early 2000s. In fact, for many years, people who damaged cars at them still had insurance coverage so long as the event was not timed. That has mostly changed.

I too fear that we may see the end of these things (even though I wouldn't do one again in a street car). They do serve a good purpose of getting folks started on track day stuff and back when I began, you didn't see much out on track more powerful than 250 hp or so -- M3s, Mustangs, BMWs, Miatas, RX7s. there were some rare Supras and Z06s and M5s, but most everything had reasonable power levels.

The stuff you see now is pretty crazy honestly.

 

[Cashburn]

The car type or driver idenity in the above example really isn't the point. I have no idea HOW the suspension failed. Just that it did...

Why make the claim in your first post then that the rear arm failed?

 

[Howard Jones]

Because it did, right on the front straight in front of god and everybody. The idea is to promp my friends on this forum to consider the importance of a maintance program and thoughtful dicussion related to safety equip issues in relation to open track day events. Not to try and place factual blame on anybody or on any organization. Shit happens.....but it seams to happen less on your shoes if you try and avoid the ass end of the donkey.

Geeese shouldn't have bothered.

 

[Dave Bilyk]

Howard,

Geeese shouldn't have bothered.

LOL :laugh: some of us are listening! Maybe Cashburn should have another r in there somewhere?

Sorry Cashburn, no offence, I just couldn't resist it

Dave

 

[Cashburn]

Because it did, right on the front straight in front of god and everybody. The idea is to promp my friends on this forum to consider the importance of a maintance program and thoughtful dicussion related to safety equip issues in relation to open track day events. Not to try and place factual blame on anybody or on any organization. Shit happens.....but it seams to happen less on your shoes if you try and avoid the ass end of the donkey.

Geeese shouldn't have bothered.

Which is it? I'm asking to get information. Do you have this information? I have heard a ball joint broke and rear arm left car on flips 1 through 3...

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

An excellent point you've raised Howard --racer boys should heed!
Walk the track (sometime) and see the screw drivers, shifters, nuts and bolts etc etc just on the edge of the tarmac.
Another point to make is about your health (and diet while at the track) and when its time to hang up the boots...
I have a national Competition licence and must go a full medical prior to renewal. IMO this is the safest level of comp. you get to know fellow competitors and their characteristics.
Back to health -- at a recent event in the paddock, noticed a car with the head lights neatly flattened up to the front wheels. "what happened , mate??" ( aged late 60s)--"don't know, only remember that the damn car won't start".
During the race, apparently blacked out and went straight for the concrete wall.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Geeese shouldn't have bothered.

No, you should have. This has been a really good thread and it's had exactly the effect on me that you were after. Thanks.

 

[Ron Earp]

Because it did, right on the front straight in front of god and everybody. The idea is to promp my friends on this forum to consider the importance of a maintance program and thoughtful dicussion related to safety equip issues in relation to open track day events. Not to try and place factual blame on anybody or on any organization. .

Right, and good thread.

For those that don't know Jay (Cashburn) is a Backdraft dealer according to his profile. This thread isn't about putting blame on anyone for the failure.