Safety Equip ?

Howard Jones

Howard Jones

Supporter
This sort of thing can happen to any manufactures car. Including GM, Honda, Mercedes, Porsche and Ford. But we can all go a long way towards preventing it by doing some thinking about preflight check lists, tire pressures, proper safety equipment, and on and on.

I know a lot about what happened including the car type and drivers name, when it happened and where. None of that matters and I personally don't think its relevant to this discussion and I wouldn't divulge that information in public because I don't think it right to do so.

People will read too much into a small piece of information like the manufactures type. I have seen really good equipment put together completely wrong and I have had friggin handlebars break off my race bike right in my hand, 6061 T6 3/4 inch alum bars damn near brand new. Never did figure that one out but you can bet I went back to chrome molly 4130 steel after that.

The bottom line is, I intend no harm and only hope to get people thinking. It's winter now. How about we all have a look at wheel bearings, possible cracks in the suspension pieces and tighten up those caliper bolts.
 
Howard Jones

Howard Jones

Supporter
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5

Mike Drew

Part of the problem is in deciding what kind of car you want to have. While it's easy to say, "FULL ROLL CAGE!", that ignores the inconvenient reality that a full roll cage is positively LETHAL on the street (and in fact is outlawed in some European countries).

The very thing that makes them excellent in a track car makes them completely unsuitable for use on the street--their supreme hardness. Recall that elsewhere on this forum, there was a story of a poor fellow in the UK who was pottering around in his Lotus Super 7 replica, got involved in a minor shunt, and his head exploded like a melon when it struck his roll cage. Had he not had the cage, he probably would have had minor injuries (if any), and now he's dead.

If your track car will ONLY be a track car, then by all means, go for a cage. But if you will ever run your car without a helmet on, then a cage is a very bad idea indeed.

Some sort of roll bar is the best compromise for a dual-purpose car--something that will improve the structural integrity of the car and decrease the chances of the roof caving in, but something that will never, EVER get anywhere near your head.

My GT350 clone and Pantera both have roll bars, and I feel much more confident on the track because of them. Neither of them extends forward anywhere near my head. Instead, if I were to hit anything, it would be the (padded) headliner bow. While that wouldn't be any fun, it would certainly be a far sight better than whacking my head on a piece of thick steel tubing.

Finally, in the video above (actually, two posts above--Howard snuck a post in while I was typing this), see the poster's comments where he has links to 'after' photos of the Miata he was in. It was equipped with a sturdy roll bar (not a cage) which survived completely unscathed. It shows that compromised safety equipment can still do exactly what you need safety equipment to do--save your life and prevent (or at least minimize) injury....
 
M

Mesa

OK Howard you are scaring me...I went to a car because I thought they might be safer. I too have had a handlebar brake off in my hand, was bending into turn two Thunderhill at about 125mph (no crash). Seriously, a race level maintenance program on a car is huge compared to bikes and that is a little daunting. Looking at the Cobra flip tells me (WIDE) low CG is my friend, that just looked goofy to me, a car flipping over (while still on the pavement) just because it spun out? Faack that.

Looking at Jeff's Miata video (Buttonwillow) the car flipped because it hit the dirt/possibly mud off track. If one had the HP to drive off of Riverside that kink is one of the two fastest 'turns' at BW (similar looking to the VIR Cobra turn at least in a vid).

Oddly, I have never felt safe at racing speeds in a car, maybe I'm thinking of all the parts that can fail? Racing bikes, easier to nut and bolt!
 
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Ron Earp

Ron Earp

Admin
The size of these cars (GT40, Cobra, Lola, etc) make the proper cage in a street car a difficult exercise. I have worn a helmet in my T70 while driving on the street, but being an open top car that isn't out of the ordinary. Also, I ride a motorcycle too and wearing a helmet on the street isn't new to me. Some folks wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. With a much larger car you can actually get a proper cage in and not worry about hitting your head on the cage if strapped in without a helmet.

I wouldn't like to drive a GT40 on track without a proper cage, As has been shown here even slow cars have accidents, but a GT40 isn't a slow car in any company. Even with a rudimentary four point cage that more or less follows the spider, a GT40 is so small those bars will be near your head. Pad them well, although I suspect hitting a roll bar with the proper padding is better than hitting a roof with a headliner, I don't want to test either one.

It is a tough subject. After wheel to wheeling it for six years I don't wish to go back to driver ed or club days, but if I did I don't feel that a simple roll bar is sufficient safety equipment. I think a roll bar is certainly better than nothing though although is needs at a minimum some triangulation. I've seen some "street roll bars" that are nothing more than hoops bolted to the floor.

Besides the cage issues, there are harness and seat considerations. How well is your seat mounted? Is the fastening hardware of sufficient quality? And what sort of harness is being used? I definitely don't like these "track day" clips that use the stock seat belts and disable the belt to supposedly hold you rigidly in place. Are you driving an open top car or one where the top is going to peel off like a banana (Miata video shown earlier)? You need arm restraints, and I'm not sure the "club day" groups require that.

Good discussion.
 
C

Cashburn

Howard Jones said:
This sort of thing can happen to any manufactures car. Including GM, Honda, Mercedes, Porsche and Ford. But we can all go a long way towards preventing it by doing some thinking about preflight check lists, tire pressures, proper safety equipment, and on and on.

I know a lot about what happened including the car type and drivers name, when it happened and where. None of that matters and I personally don't think its relevant to this discussion and I wouldn't divulge that information in public because I don't think it right to do so.

People will read too much into a small piece of information like the manufactures type. I have seen really good equipment put together completely wrong and I have had friggin handlebars break off my race bike right in my hand, 6061 T6 3/4 inch alum bars damn near brand new. Never did figure that one out but you can bet I went back to chrome molly 4130 steel after that.

The bottom line is, I intend no harm and only hope to get people thinking. It's winter now. How about we all have a look at wheel bearings, possible cracks in the suspension pieces and tighten up those caliper bolts.
Click to expand...

I appreciate this and simply am after some details since it is a product we have a lot vested in. If you can PM me or email what details you have I appreciate it. And many people will ask about it going forward.

Thanks
 
Howard Jones

Howard Jones

Supporter
Crash.....I did not see with my own eyes standing in exactly the right place at the right time like a NFL ref to be certain exactly what happened. I did however speak to someone who did see the last 95% of the incident and all of the three rolls, who also viewed the damaged car thereafter up close so what I do know was second hand direct information from a mature knowledgeable source.

He told me that the LR wheel and tire with a big piece of suspension attached left the car as it went under the chassis causing the first flip. The car continued down the front straight shedding pieces and came to rest on the inside of the track. Thus my initial description of "suspension failure". What the very first bolt broke was or if the ball joint let go first or where the crack formed I don't have specific information.

Even the Space Shuttle broke...........twice.....everything breaks sooner or later.....I wish you and your business the best of fortune and commend you for your interest in on track safety.

So I will not comment further on this specific event. I think your best bet is to contact the owner directly.
 
aladinsane

Tim Kay

Lifetime Supporter
Maybe it's age and the sense of mortality creeping in but in the past year much thinking has gone into driving my cars fast and safe. I've definitely slowed my street pace down (if for no better reason than to reduce my exposure to traffic tickets!) To fulfill my need for speed I recently opted for a Porsche 2002 GT3 Cup;
1.) I can't take it on the street, no registration
2.) it's fully outfitted with the best safety gear from the 'get-go'
3.) and most important, It's tech inspected thoroughly by a professional race shop before each event.

My GT40 is has my heart but I won't drive that car as aggressive as I would like, I truly don't believe it to be a safe car even with safety equipment added.

Tim
 
D

Dean Lampe

The gentleman that bought my GT40 barrel rolled it at significant speed. He landed upside down and he climbed out and helped load it up on the flat bed. The cage that Fran built for that car saved his life. If he was in any GT40 out there without the cage, he would have likely been killed. There is an in car video of the whole thing.

mikeGT40 - YouTube
 
Howard Jones

Howard Jones

Supporter
Give his method of downshifts I was waiting for that. These cars have such good brakes that the engine isn't needed to slow the car. They like the rear wheels nice in line with the fronts and little if any trailing braking. I almost did the same thing when I started driving mine. Some one who knew what he was talking about clued me in on mid engine tail happy cars with no down-force. Now I stop it in a straight line, and corner a gear higher that possible. I'm quicker that way and Betty likes the lack of a flogging.

I just get to the brake zone, plant my foot on the brakes and when it is all nice and slowed down put in the right gear and match revs as best I can. Hurried gear changes, up or down, just break things anyway. And unless it's a qualifying lap the difference in lap times will be very little.

I hope the car is OK since we know the driver escaped alive. Everybody who has a GT40 should see that video.

He's Derek Bell in a GT40. Brakes first then downshift just prior to turn in. Easy in power early hard out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKlSqXNfIo&feature=related
 
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J

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
you can trail brake these cars, pretty significantly -- or at least you could the Lola. With the weight on the rear end they actually like it.

That guy (no offense) just totally blew the downshift, and let the clutch out too fast. The motor slowed the car too much and he got too much weight transfer and the rear stepped out. All of that happened in a straight line.

When the Lola was very hard to heel and toe that used to happen quite a bit. If you let the clutch out too quickly without revs matched, engine braking would cause too much weight transfer and around you go.

He may also have had too much rear brake dialed in, making it worse.

Suspensions on Fran's stuff are fundamentally very sound once setup correctly.

Dlampe said:
The gentleman that bought my GT40 barrel rolled it at significant speed. He landed upside down and he climbed out and helped load it up on the flat bed. The cage that Fran built for that car saved his life. If he was in any GT40 out there without the cage, he would have likely been killed. There is an in car video of the whole thing.

mikeGT40 - YouTube
Click to expand...
 
Veek

Pat

Supporter
From a safety standpoint, it seems that the course could have been graded so there wasn't a rut or whatever it was to flip him over. I’m glad he’s ok and hopefully Fran can put it back on the jig and straighten it back out.
One other thought about roll cages, I've been end over end and rolled my formula car and walked away because of the cage. The fellow that built it was meticulous about the welds and shape of the cage. Unless you really know what you’re doing, insure you have a pro weld your cage. If your cage is chrome moly you are taking a risk of you MIG weld. Use TIG instead.
 
A

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
Veek said:
From a safety standpoint, it seems that the course could have been graded so there wasn't a rut or whatever it was to flip him over.
Click to expand...

If there was a suspension or tire failure the flip could have been caused by metal contacting and digging into the pavement; if the runout are is soft enough and or a tire bead separates from the rim, you don't even need metal failure; no amount of grading will prevent that kind of flip. So to reinforce Howard's points, no one is immune.
 
D

Dean Lampe

No metal failure there. The car is actually almost back together. The car was in great shape after the crash.

It will be back on the track before x-mas.

The roll was caused by a rut created from a service truck doing some resurfacing on the track.
 
O

Matt

flatchat said:
Hmmm Backdraft eh?
A local guy has one that did something fairly similarly not long ago -- the engine sounded really good at full noise tho
Click to expand...

Well that'd be me Mrs Flatchat! 1st time poster but long time reader... Hope you don't mind me jumping on and saying hi.

Chris is right... my car... did have a major rear end failure at a practice day at Qld raceway a few months ago. While the result was not as horrific as the topics 1st pics....I have much work to do to get the car back to the track.

From thodr pics, you can see the front of the lower control arm sits in a bracket that is then bolted through to the chassis. On my car, the locating bolt that holds the LCA to this bracket failed! Whereas in the pics it looks like either the bracket has come loose and dropped the entire LCA housing down or B ripped out as part of the accident. Dunno. Whatever happened once its out of its position your a passenger!

I'm very specific with my car. I mark all bolts with a yellow paint pen and check, re-check and tighten/replace anything that looks suss. The car had been on my hoist and these bolts where all checked. The only thing that happened between the bolts being checked and that 1ST outlap prior to my incident was 4 hrs on a dyno the day before. Luckily it was on an outlap with a damp track or it would've been a similar result I'm sure. At the point mine failed I'd guess I'm at 110mph + accel.

I've "corrected" or "improved" many things with my car since I bought it as its a track car only and if something does go wrong...usually its going to be expensive at best...and / or life threatening at worst.

That said, I'm also really really anal about my own personal safety. I try and buy as much and the best safety stuff I can. I know potentially I may attract some remarks from a few (and no I'm certainly not a great driver OR the fastest on any given day) but I do enjoy my racing and I take my personal safety pretty seriously. I run a Nascar style door instrusion and cage, on board fire supression, fuel pump cut off switch on oil presssure, bat kill switch, plus hans device, best helmet gloves, under garments, arm restraints, boots I can find.

I do worry about some of my mates who are much faster than me, single roll bar hoop, and the basics of glove and a motorcycle helmet. They are serisouly quick... and an off like mine with less safety may have had far worse a result than I.

In the end we do what we do because we enjoy it....but I want to come home in way piece always.

Cashy, if you'd like to see my on board video of what happened just pm me and I'll try and send it through. I'm not an avid CCC user these days. I'm not one for posting on youtube my bad/poor luck but happy to share if you think it helps. I've already sent it to Reg but not sure if he had responded after seeing it or not!

Anyway thanks for listening to my 10 cents worth and yep....I hope to have a GT40 in my garage relatively......soon!

OzBDR MAtt
 
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