Ken Roberts
Supporter
Can Fran chime in and mention where the hood hinges can be purchased for the owners who would prefer this method.
SL-C 002 build Bob DeNyse
- Thread starter Bob D
- Start date
Been having problems with serious brake fade so here it what we did to get the cooling duct closer to the rotor. We have changed brake fluid to 600* and are modifying the inlet on the nose. We are also looking at the check valves in the brake system trying to get input on what to do with those. Will let you know what turns out after this weekend at Roebling Road Raceway.
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Ideally you need to get the cooling air into the ID of the rotor by the vanes so they can do their job of pulling the air thru when rotating, wont hurt to have another hose/duct pointing at the caliper either,[ best situation/cure would an upright that had provision for all that cast/machined into it]
Does your brake system incorporate check valves in a circulating setup like DPI?, where you use a dual fluid line setup-one out to the calipers, one return to the Master Cyls, so that the brake fluid is being moved thru the system with each brake application.
Does your brake system incorporate check valves in a circulating setup like DPI?, where you use a dual fluid line setup-one out to the calipers, one return to the Master Cyls, so that the brake fluid is being moved thru the system with each brake application.
What pads? Check out Cobalt Friction..
Still trying to stay on topic, why? I need to change the pads in my Miata and was just going to go with straight EBC, generally cheap and cheerful.
X2 on what Jac said. A brake flud recirculation system will damatically extend your brakes. In lieu of this, I would suggest making sure you give the brakes a good bleeding after each outing to remove that fluid which has boiled in the calipers. Once fluid has boiled or even gotten extremely hot, it's resistance to heat / boiling is reduced substantially..
Bob, air directed to the rotor in the manner in which your picture shows, is - as Jac Mac mentions- not optimal, and may in fact lead to increased cracking.
The best solution is to use a properly designed duct that takes cold air from the front brake duct openings in the bodywork and directs it into the center of the rotor, with sealing to improve efficiency.
Toby has made a nice brake duct that a couple of us are using. See the pic below of one loosely sitting (not correctly installed yet) on an upright to check overall fit:
You could add additional sealing to this, but it looks like it will be pretty good out of the box.
Personally, I don't think you need exotica like brake fluid recirculation systems, as the 01 car has proved over time that it didn't need it (even in a 13 hour race), and the 01 is likely both heavier, and going faster, compared to your street/track car.
The right pads, fluid, ducting and overall brake condition are what you need to get right before you go to something more exotic. You've already got way more brake hardware than most SLCs, so that's not the problem, assuming something isn't amiss there.
Most times, it's the simple stuff that has to be remedied first. If it were my car, that's where I'd start.
The best solution is to use a properly designed duct that takes cold air from the front brake duct openings in the bodywork and directs it into the center of the rotor, with sealing to improve efficiency.
Toby has made a nice brake duct that a couple of us are using. See the pic below of one loosely sitting (not correctly installed yet) on an upright to check overall fit:
You could add additional sealing to this, but it looks like it will be pretty good out of the box.
Personally, I don't think you need exotica like brake fluid recirculation systems, as the 01 car has proved over time that it didn't need it (even in a 13 hour race), and the 01 is likely both heavier, and going faster, compared to your street/track car.
The right pads, fluid, ducting and overall brake condition are what you need to get right before you go to something more exotic. You've already got way more brake hardware than most SLCs, so that's not the problem, assuming something isn't amiss there.
Most times, it's the simple stuff that has to be remedied first. If it were my car, that's where I'd start.
I do 24 hour races on a set of pads now or more. I used to go through a set in about 8 hours and have fluid issues. The brakes are plenty big enough and should have no issues. The only thing we changed, now a different car but same concept, are 3" brake ducts. As long as you are flowing more air over them it should help a ton and the more you can get the better. I now have 3 3" per front. One to the caliper, one to rotor and then one to center as I can. The idea is to keep it cool and after talking to carbotech the wear rate is exponential when it gets hotter as the pads break down fast when super hot.
I was suprised the 01 race car did not have big ducts, but those are just that good. So it can not hurt. I plan to use art least 1 3" duct per side if not two. If I can get pads to last longer then I would be happy. I like my carbotech rp2 compound for the track as that is their long lasting endurance pads.
I was suprised the 01 race car did not have big ducts, but those are just that good. So it can not hurt. I plan to use art least 1 3" duct per side if not two. If I can get pads to last longer then I would be happy. I like my carbotech rp2 compound for the track as that is their long lasting endurance pads.
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Ron Earp
Admin
RRR is pretty easy on brakes too. If they won't last there then they've got no chance at CMP.
Ditto what has been said - get the duct to the center of the rotor so the air can flow outward as it is designed to do. A caliper duct certainly won't hurt, and neither will a rotor hat, but the center duct is the key.
Ditto what has been said - get the duct to the center of the rotor so the air can flow outward as it is designed to do. A caliper duct certainly won't hurt, and neither will a rotor hat, but the center duct is the key.
Once you design and build a proper manifold to get your dicting to the center of the rotor, find a place to add one of these in each 3" duct. You will be totally amazed at your brake performance:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/DetMar-7-5-4C-3-Blower-Bilge/dp/B0000AYG8Y]DetMar 7-5-4C 3'' Blower Bilge : Amazon.com : Automotive[/ame]
Also, Castrol SRF is very good, but there are a number of others now that I think are comparable from AP, Performance Friction, Wilwood.
Messy but also works very well is the introduction of water to the center of the rotor. We ran water brakes many years ago with great success until some knucklehead decoded that is posed a hazard on the track and they were banned. That ban has since been lifted by most sanctioning bodies that I am aware of. A couple gallons of water, a windshield washer pump along with a pair of nozzles and some tubing.
We aimed the nozzles right at the wheel bearing inside the rotor which also helped the bearing stay much cooler. The water was turned to steam immediately and there was no moisture on the track. Key trick here is to turn on the water brakes as soon as you are done with your warm up lap and before the green flag. If you wait until the brakes are already hot, you will probably fracture a rotor.
Also you will need to turn them off before exiting the track - usually on the cool down lap.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/DetMar-7-5-4C-3-Blower-Bilge/dp/B0000AYG8Y]DetMar 7-5-4C 3'' Blower Bilge : Amazon.com : Automotive[/ame]
Also, Castrol SRF is very good, but there are a number of others now that I think are comparable from AP, Performance Friction, Wilwood.
Messy but also works very well is the introduction of water to the center of the rotor. We ran water brakes many years ago with great success until some knucklehead decoded that is posed a hazard on the track and they were banned. That ban has since been lifted by most sanctioning bodies that I am aware of. A couple gallons of water, a windshield washer pump along with a pair of nozzles and some tubing.
We aimed the nozzles right at the wheel bearing inside the rotor which also helped the bearing stay much cooler. The water was turned to steam immediately and there was no moisture on the track. Key trick here is to turn on the water brakes as soon as you are done with your warm up lap and before the green flag. If you wait until the brakes are already hot, you will probably fracture a rotor.
Also you will need to turn them off before exiting the track - usually on the cool down lap.
We found out that the master cylinders were bad, went to bleed them and the peddle would not come back up. We decided to change the master cylinders to a wilwood 1" and have the reservoirs at the cylinder not the remote system. It makes for a harder time to check and add fluid but we did not like the remote system. The car only has 2600 miles and if it failed at that mileage then they are not the ones to use. We also changed the fluid to a wilwood 600* oil. I went to RRR and had much better brakes but still had brake fade at the end of the weekend. Will need to bleed them again. I will move the duct toward the center of the rotor and look to see what we can do about adding in more duct or going to the enclosed one Will was showing. Is that available for purchase? I am also considering changing pads, it just does not have the stopping I am looking for does anyone have suggestions, I do not know what we have now on it. Thanks for all the help glad to see people trying to help each other on this forum, it is a great source. I am also getting body movement in the front dipping down and the rear down as well. I also need some help from someone who can tell me about a downforce car, when it lets go does it go completely or gradually like a normal car, I just don't want to loose it and find out the hard way, so I am starting to push it a little but do not want to find out when it goes there is no feeling of it letting go before it happens. I have been racing for 20 years but never with a downforce car.
Any idea why they failed? I agree the Wilwood remote system is junk (trying to seal plastic on plastic....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............mine are leak free finally, for now.........although my Tilton 1-piece unit is looking pretty damn nice as a replacement at the moment) but the cylinders are used in all sorts of cars and I havn't read about a high failure rate on them?
No my mechanic was going to disassemble them to see what happened but we just ran out of time, I have already thrown everything away. The main problem I have had with the SL-C is part failure, it just does not make sense to have so many part failures with so new of parts. We have found if a part has failed look at another part replacement not the original one and see if there is a better one. I have told many people this car behaves just like a full blown race car and just as tempermental. I do not think all the part failures we have had is due to assembly but you never know.
Bob-
The car is mostly "top" area (front nose and rear wing) so the car will go away some what gradually. faster than a non areo car, but nothing too crazy. Just remember that your cornering speeds will be much faster, which WILL make the car go away faster.
The car is mostly "top" area (front nose and rear wing) so the car will go away some what gradually. faster than a non areo car, but nothing too crazy. Just remember that your cornering speeds will be much faster, which WILL make the car go away faster.
I had my car at Roebling Road Raceway in September, had good brakes till the last session and they were getting soft, I am thinking with all the use it probably worked up some air in the system. I have not had it out since and am getting the need for speed again. Can winter just move on where we can get out and on the track again. This is why I want to go to the Daytona 24 hour race to get to drive the car, it is always such a thrill.
I also need some help from someone who can tell me about a downforce car, when it lets go does it go completely or gradually like a normal car, I just don't want to loose it and find out the hard way, so I am starting to push it a little but do not want to find out when it goes there is no feeling of it letting go before it happens. I have been racing for 20 years but never with a downforce car.[/QUOTE]
Bob, have you ever tried a race car simulator or Xbox with a force feedback steering wheel these will give you an good idea of some of the characteristics of what a cars do at high speeds and you will see how the better designed and race tuned cars react differently. Mario Andretti said he couldn’t believe how these sim’s are so close to the real thing. Race teams are using them to help train their drivers the same way the military train their pilot’s and tank crews. Kids playing these race car games have proven to be better drivers when starting out learning to drive. The performance and handling spec’s of each car have been feed into the computer games for a very real experience and will save you thousands of dollars on crashed cars. you can feel the cars get loose as the tires wear down, brake fade, aero planeing, drifting, its all in there now, pretty cool stuff.
Bob, have you ever tried a race car simulator or Xbox with a force feedback steering wheel these will give you an good idea of some of the characteristics of what a cars do at high speeds and you will see how the better designed and race tuned cars react differently. Mario Andretti said he couldn’t believe how these sim’s are so close to the real thing. Race teams are using them to help train their drivers the same way the military train their pilot’s and tank crews. Kids playing these race car games have proven to be better drivers when starting out learning to drive. The performance and handling spec’s of each car have been feed into the computer games for a very real experience and will save you thousands of dollars on crashed cars. you can feel the cars get loose as the tires wear down, brake fade, aero planeing, drifting, its all in there now, pretty cool stuff.
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Grant it has been a long time since I played on the games but if I can find one I will definitely try it out sounds like fun. I am a driving instructor for a high performance school and one of the thingss I teach my students is that you drive with your butt and your hands, you feel the car with your butt and respond with your hands. I am glad for some input for the winged cars and how they react to loosing it, I have a chance to go to Roebling Road in January and teach, I will start to put some of this to the test. Thanks for the input.
Bob D
Bob D
