Something to ponder!

[Al Wohlstrom]

> > Alive and growing in every state... Especially CA...
>
> >
> >
>
> > Joe Legal vs. Joe Illegal
>
>
>
> Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically
> productive for the State of California...
>
> >
>
> You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
> parents, 2 children and live in California.
>
> >
>
> "Joe Legal" works in construction, has a Social Security Number, and
> makes $25.00 per hour with payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works
> in construction, has "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash
> under the table".
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per year
>
>
> >
>
> > Now take 30% away for state federal tax
>
> >
>
> Joe Legal now has $31,231.00
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per year
>
> >
>
> Jose Illegal pays no taxes...
>
> >
>
> Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00
>
>
> >
>
> Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage
>
> >
>
> > $1000.00 per month
>
> >
>
> > $12,000.00 per year
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal now has $19,231.00
>
>
> >
>
> Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
> local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year
>
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00
>

> >
>
> > Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal pays for food
>
> >
>
> > $1,000.00 per month
>
> >
>
> > $12,000.00 per year
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal now has $ 7,231.00
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and Welfare
>
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00
>
> >
>
>
> > Joe Legal pays rent of
>
> >
>
> > $1,000.00 per month
>
> >
>
> > $12,000.00 per year
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal is now in the hole
>
> >
>
> > minus (-) $4,769.00
>
> >
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy
>
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal pays rent
>
> >
>
> > $500.00 per month
>
> >
>
> > $6,000.00 per year
>
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal still has $25,200.00
>
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
>
> Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
> government sponsored lunch.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's
> children go home.
>
> >
>
> > Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
> but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Don't vote/support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
>
> >
>
> > It's PAST time to take a stand for America and Americans!

 

[Cliff Beer]

Al, agree 100%. Most other developed first world countries are highly protective of their borders and citizenship - immigration is almost impossible - so why is it if you speak out against illegal aliens in the US people label you as elitist or closed minded?? It has nothing to do with the skin color of illegal aliens, rather, it's about the costs/burdens upon the system of those gaining the benefits who don't contribute correspondingly (as you rightly point out at length here).

Sure, we'd like to give every disadvantaged potential immigrant a shot at a better life, but the reality is that the system (our tax dollars and gov't services) can only reasonably support so much so there needs to be some regulation and manageable limits put upon it all so the whole thing doesn't implode. Housing, feeding, providing medical services, etc, heck even silly things like translation services (all provided to those who generally pay no taxes) are EXPENSIVE things to provide!

To those that say "everyone deserves a chance at a better life" in this country, I say "fine, YOU pay for it, get your checkbook out right now." That seems to shut them up pretty quick.

ps. what goof ball decided that not only do we need to provide welfare services to illegal aliens, but also IN THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE?? So my tax dollars are being spent on a translator so an illegal alien can better determine how to free load on the system more effectively and suck up even more tax dollars.....WTF??

here come the "you're an insensitive a$$hole" comments......just watch....

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

We are in deep trouble regarding the illegal alien entitlements. As an immigrant I can tell you you guys that the whole immigration system is so convoluted with so many bandaids that I do not think that there is a way out of it without general amnesty. And then 10 years later another one and so forth.
Somehow in this whole debate somebody decided that Hispanics are the chosen race and they get all the benefits while other ethnic groups have to suck it up and get in line behind them.
Living in this Country, enjoying its culture and language is the single biggest improvement a citizen of any other nation could make in his life. Yet somehow our elected leaders feel compelled to apologize for the Greatness that is the US of A.
I would not even have that much of a problem with guys coming here illegally since the system is very much rigged in favor of 3rd world nation applicants for legal immigration making it near impossible for a skilled technician from a 1st world nation to get a visa at all. All I ask of my potential new neighbors is to do "American" things and speak English for crying out loud!
When I see pictures of towns in india with the remains of a once great culture only a few generations ago I know where american towns are headed. Most of Los Angeles has already all the charms of Tijuana - including the diseases.
The Morlocks are running wild in the streets - Us Eloy can only hide.....

 

[Jack]

I'm afraid that I favor tough immigration laws, time to completely revamp the entire system! Deport the illegals, enforce really tough border controls and go after the employers of said illegals. One only needs to have a look at the current situation in the U.K. to see the burden and expense of out of control immigration law.

Let's get REAL!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

My father and his family came to the USA via Ellis Island from Sweden in 1912. A family of of 8, they had learned English prior to coming to the USA. They became US citizens as quickly as possible. They retained their pride in being Swedish but were totally committed to being American. My dad worked as a superintendent in a defense plant during the war, both my uncles were in the armed forces. My uncle Ted got shot down over Germany on his 32nd mission in a B29, he's buried in France. Until the day my father died he was awed at his good fortune to be an American. He and his family would never have thought of waving a Swedish flag for any reason.
Recently I went to the hospital with a strained chest muscle that I thought was a heart problem. I had retired, was 63, and had minimal insurance coverage. The 3 hour visit cost me $900.00. The nurse said that if I was Hispanic it would have cost nothing. I am deeply pissed every time I have to "Press one for English". I am not happy that I don't get as much for Social Security (oxymoron) as illegals do. Rallies of illegals waving the flags of their countries with our flag upside down, protesting about their "RIGHTS" make me not really give a damn about their cause. I was born and raised in the USA, I love this country, but for the first time in 65 years, I am considering a move to another country. One without Socialist leanings, which it appears we are heading for. I need to stop now because this really makes me angry!

 

[Steve C]

Al,

Think I met you in Mystic Ct few yrs back (me with Superformance Cobra black hardtop/ you with an ERA).

I agree with your posts above.

Where can you go that has the ideals esposed?

Steve

 

[Brian Hamilton]

I'm not going to get into the whole Illegal Immigrant thing, but I will tell you this... My wife looked at moving to Sweden for a few years before we met. She's a dental hygenist and the opportunity popped up for her to go there for 4 years and work and make great money. In order for her to move there, she had to pass a litteracy exam in their language, had to have verified employment prior to her move, had to have her daughter enrolled into school with classes teaching in both english and dutch (I think that's the language there). She had to state the length of time she would be working and when she'd return to her home nation.

Now, if we had something like that, we'd be called insensitive, intollerant, etc. We are supposed to take in the poor, the needy , the downtrodden right? How's the saying go?

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!


So, I understand we're supposed to do that. I understand this country was founded on immigration and opportunity. But we do need to do something to control the illegal immigration in this country. When these words were written, we had Ellis Island documenting every immigrant who came to our shores. We didn't have welfare which we handed out to illegal immigrants who just walked across the river, cut a hole in the fence, and walked onto our land and said, "Que paso, eh, speaka de spainish? Me needeh some moneys por favor." When you came to this country you had to get your ass a job and take advantage of the opportunity. Not have anything handed to you like it is today.

Same thing goes with the shitty economy we have. Opportunity means sink or swim. AIG should have just sank. No reason the government should have bailed them out. If you have shitty business practices, then you will fail. Plain & simple. I work in Real Estate and I haven't made much of crap for money this year. I gurantee everyone reading this has made AT LEAST double what I've made this year. Even if you're retired! Is the government helping me out? Hell no! Why? Because I'm white, my wife makes $55k a year, and we're smart with our money.

Again, it's not about race, but it kinda is in the eyes of the government. I honestly think that our government feels sorry for how it's treated minorities in the past and now is punishing the caucasion population because of it. Guess what, I wasn't even friggin alive when all that stuff was going on. Why should I be punished for the sins of my grandparents or further back? I was born in Alabama, where ALL that stuff went down. Do I feel guilty because I lived in the state where Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks had their big showdowns? Should I feel guilty because I visited the University of Alabama where people threw rocks at the black students? Nope. I don't feel guilty because I didn't do anything.

Ok, I'm done ranting. I'll go on forever. Back to you guys, I'm going to go eat lunch.


Laters,

Brian

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

I think what really gets everybody so upset is the modern "taxpayer as a second class citizen program" Every way you turn there is somebody getting something for free , or has more rights or has the politicians bend over backwards to help him while the majory is being told to suck it up and pay more taxes.
Whatever happened to "No taxation without representation"?
Isn't it time for a new revolution?

 

[Jack]

Just thinking that the American Revolution involved a mere 2% tax on tea.
Hang in there Mike, it's going to change as more and more Americans get FED up
with the degrading system. I thought we were a REPUBLIC! So do many others..

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Well the problem with a revolution is this...

The military was created to keep the government in line. It was comprised of citizens to defend the country from all enemies foriegn and domestic. Now the military is controlled by the government and comprised of citizens who are training in urban combat. This seems like too much of a coincidence to me. They're training to fight in neighborhoods and in cities, as well as house clearing and weapons removal. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the theories are starting to come together. Know what I mean?

 

[Mike]

Al, I think you’ve struck a sensitive chord here , and I don’t think you’re going to get a lot of argument from this forum. Given that a GT-40 is not a necessity for survival (although for some it may be close), most of the folks here are undoubtedly ‘haves’, granted some certainly have more than others, and all are paying taxes to support the “system”…especially you guys in Cal.

For anyone who has worked hard and taken advantage of the opportunities in this country, it is aggravating to see the fruits of his/her (note the PC…) labor ‘shared’ with those who haven’t earned it, or more accurately, those who appear to be taking advantage of the system. It is even more aggravating to see these same people demand it as a “right”, their only contribution being they were able to climb a fence. Having said that, as screwed up as the system is, I don’t know of anyplace that has it better?
As an immigrant myself (legal!), having lived in 3 countries and visited many more, some at Uncle Sam’s expense (it’s only fair to try to pay something back for the good life, right ?), there ‘ain’t no place like home’.
So, Al, if you’re thinking of moving somewhere, where you gonna go?

Dicked up as things may be, one can only console oneself with the old adage, “this too shall pass”, hopefully in 3 years and 6 months…but who’s counting.

What I’d like to see is some comments from our buddies in foreign (to the U.S.) lands? What say you about your immigration laws, Paolo? David? Pete? Anyone in “La Belle France”? Anzacs? Scandahoovia? Deutchland? Since all of you have the experience of thousands of years of history vs. our idealistic 233, will we in time evolve to look like everyone else politically?…O.K. maybe not France

Alohas,

 

[Jack]

Mike, we are running as fast as possible to a continental European model. Time to re-assess what this country is really all about. Do we as a people wish to evolve into this "model", or reduce the size of government and support the individual states rights and once again become more self sufficient? Yes, we are still the best country in the world (IMHO) but how long can we stay that way? 'Nuff said...

Individual responsibility and common sense are a couple of terms lacking in our current politic.

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Skandahoovia - Funny

I traveled a lot and and all the european nations are run by Democrats or worse. They all share the same disdain for their original citizens and their love for the noble immigrant. No gun rights, muslims taking over the cities. eco laws that make Obama look good and taxation up the yazoo.
Alternatively you could join thousands of child molesters and move to Thailand or beat the system and move to Mexico.
Personally I'll stay put and complain every chance I get. Maybe others will do the same and public sentiment will eventually change...

 

[Jack]

+1 Mike!

 

[Ian K]

While I completely agree that illegal immigration is a significant problem in the US,
a lot of the stuff below needs correcting for reality:

>
> "Joe Legal" works in construction, has a Social Security Number, and
> makes $25.00 per hour with payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works
> in construction, has "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash
> under the table".

Knowing a number of legal construction workers, $15.00 for illegals is a bit
on the high side, but we'll roll with it for now.

> > Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per year
> > Now take 30% away for state federal tax
>

Federal rate is 15% at that income, state is 4%. Add in deductions right off the
bat, more likely your are looking at 12% or so.

>
> Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
> local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year
>

This is also a bit misleading. While he may get Emergency Room freebies, he
gets no regular checkups, and to the best of my knowledge, no dental.


> > Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and Welfare

This is also not true. While his dependents may be eligible, neither he nor his wife,
nor any person in his family between the ages of 16 and 60 are eligible, unless they
register for work. As illegals, there is no legitimate paperwork to prove work. In other
words, illegal immigrants are not necessarily eligible.

>
> > Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy

Not sure where this comes from. Federal explicitly states that to receive such subsidies,
you must be legal. Some cities have enacted their own programs (such as San Fran) to
compensate, but no federal subsidy is available.

> Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's
> children go home.

My wife, an elementary school teacher, would vociferously argue the reality of
that School budgets do not allow for such "frivolity".

>
> > Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
> but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

And I can assure you that this does not necessarily bear out in reality.
Plenty of interesting news articles about how equality is not there.

>
> > Don't vote/support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
>

I agree here for the most part, but it isn't so black and white. A number of studies
have been done that show that legalization of illegals will actually cost more money
than allowing them to stay illegal, especially given that many of the programs they
currently are not eligible for (Medicaid, Food Stamps, Federal Housing), they would
become eligible for, and the increased tax revenue does not cover the added expense.
Also, many illegals work in agriculture, and make far far less than minimum wage. The
cost of food would skyrocket if those farmers/agricultural corporations were forced to
pay fair wages. Or, as usual, the Feds would cover it with even more subsidies.

As I said, I agree, it is a big problem. But I am not sure there is a black and white
answer.

Ian

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

From an outsider looking in I can see your frustration, unfortunately the same same cotton wool treatment of illegals applies here.
However, it is very difficult to immigrate here legally...Go figure?

I also resent seeing my hard earned $$$ going in taxes to help the "poor homeless boat people".
At least we have the advantage of being an island continent and a lot of the buggers sink trying to get here....

Flame suit on.

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Ian - You are right about the letter of the law denying certain services to illegals but you know that here in california nobody enforces those laws and nobody checks for eligibility once you show up and ask for those handouts.
Especially since those behind the counter are often the children of illegal aliens themselves.
Regarding the free dental - Jose gets that in prison together with the cool "Pacoima" Tattoo across his belly.....
I do not think nitpicking helps here. We need polarization for the taxpayers to unite behind the issue at hand. It is either black or white or hot or cold. Lukewarm doesn't cut it anymore!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The entire issue of legalizing the illegals by our esteemed politicians has nothing to do with all 531 of them having a touch of conscience or feelings about the plight of the people. Their concern is strictly about the addition of 20,000,000 positive votes come next election or whenever it happens. This goes for your (not mine) president down to the lowliest congressman. They as a whole could give a rats butt about the survival of these people, the only concern is the vote. Just like the movie "In Search of the Holy Grail" when the senators were asked what they should do about the Pleblians. The reply was" F--k the Pleblians" In this case we are the Pleblians.

 

[Cliff Beer]

While I completely agree that illegal immigration is a significant problem in the US,
a lot of the stuff below needs correcting for reality:

>
> "Joe Legal" works in construction, has a Social Security Number, and
> makes $25.00 per hour with payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works
> in construction, has "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash
> under the table".

Knowing a number of legal construction workers, $15.00 for illegals is a bit
on the high side, but we'll roll with it for now.

> > Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per year
> > Now take 30% away for state federal tax
>

Federal rate is 15% at that income, state is 4%. Add in deductions right off the
bat, more likely your are looking at 12% or so.

>
> Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
> local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year
>

This is also a bit misleading. While he may get Emergency Room freebies, he
gets no regular checkups, and to the best of my knowledge, no dental.


> > Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and Welfare

This is also not true. While his dependents may be eligible, neither he nor his wife,
nor any person in his family between the ages of 16 and 60 are eligible, unless they
register for work. As illegals, there is no legitimate paperwork to prove work. In other
words, illegal immigrants are not necessarily eligible.

>
> > Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy

Not sure where this comes from. Federal explicitly states that to receive such subsidies,
you must be legal. Some cities have enacted their own programs (such as San Fran) to
compensate, but no federal subsidy is available.

> Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's
> children go home.

My wife, an elementary school teacher, would vociferously argue the reality of
that School budgets do not allow for such "frivolity".

>
> > Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
> but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

And I can assure you that this does not necessarily bear out in reality.
Plenty of interesting news articles about how equality is not there.

>
> > Don't vote/support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
>

I agree here for the most part, but it isn't so black and white. A number of studies
have been done that show that legalization of illegals will actually cost more money
than allowing them to stay illegal, especially given that many of the programs they
currently are not eligible for (Medicaid, Food Stamps, Federal Housing), they would
become eligible for, and the increased tax revenue does not cover the added expense.
Also, many illegals work in agriculture, and make far far less than minimum wage. The
cost of food would skyrocket if those farmers/agricultural corporations were forced to
pay fair wages. Or, as usual, the Feds would cover it with even more subsidies.

As I said, I agree, it is a big problem. But I am not sure there is a black and white
answer.

Ian

Ian, obviously, you're exactly right, it's not that black and white. And, that's precisely why Al's example is a good and necessary exercise - because there is so much complexity to the range of Federal and state entitlements, and variation in the practical application of those entitlements (see MWegner's post), a black and white example is necessary to draw out the main concept here. I don't believe Al was putting forth the example as a 100% accurate factual example, rather, an illustrative example with a very strong basis in truth and reality.

I came to this country as an immigrant - admittedly, from Canada so it's not like I swam the Rio Grande, cut a fence and snuck in under the cover of darkness - but when I got here I spoke the language, had a job, paid taxes, obeyed the law, was thankful to be here, had a good attitude, and said good things about the opportunity I had been given. Since then I've become a US citizen, continued to do all of the above, start my family, started a business which employs a large number of people, and have given back to my community both in terms of dollars and time. I know I was given an opportunity, and I've honored that opportunity, so I guess I have some small right to resent others who want that opportunity without any strings and corresponding obligations.

Like everything in life, you got to give to get. That's fair and right and decent and nobody should be shamed for standing up and calling for some accountability and contribution on the part of immigrants (legal or otherwise).

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

Think I met you in Mystic Ct few yrs back (me with Superformance Cobra black hardtop/ you with an ERA).

I agree with your posts above.

Where can you go that has the ideals esposed?

Steve

Yeah Steve, I remember, except I was driving the Kirkham.