Surge Tank

Troymx576 · Jul 3, 2012

I have ordered my kit and want to start on some little things before it comes so it is not so overwhelming when it gets here, plus it keeps me focused on the car in the future.
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I am pondering the surge tank location on the SLC. I am going to have a V6 twin turbo setup and want to try to keep then engine and turbos as far forward as possible to balance the car as best I can. This will be a warm setup and get things hot under there. I am going to also have twin intercoolers and with all the piping and everything there I was thinking that having the surge tank in the engine area may or may not be good depending on where to put it.
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I have a surge tank on my race car and it works great, never and issue, and it is pretty small. It is a 3" tube that is 6" long. Just enough for about one lap, but really just enough for corners and braking when almost no fuel. So on the SLC I was thinking about just using a real small one instead of a larger one and basically the same dimensions. I know a 2 gallon one would be nice to have more fuel, but I do not plan to let it run totally dry so that is not an issue.
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So where to mount it if I make one about this size? When the fuel tank is installed is it shifted to one side? I remember seeing a picture somewhere that showed this with a fuel pump next to it, but it might be my midnight time frame with a lagging tired mind getting different car set ups confused.
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Here are some locations I was thinking from just looking at the car briefly and from pictures. <o

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1- Next to fuel take with 3"x6" tube style. <o

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2- On top of fuel tank with a different shape, depending on spacing<o

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3- In engine bay area close to front left side as far away from exhaust and turbo as can be.<o

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4- In engine bay area up high and away from items, but I was thinking I was going to put my water overlfow there. Maybe overflow on right side and surge on the left side. I do like the idea of having the fuel lower for overall better center of gravity, but a quart of fuel is not going to change much of anything.
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Anyone have pictures of their setups? <o

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Thanks<o

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Troy<o

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Dimi · Jul 3, 2012

Hi Troy

Surge tank placement and size is one of those things that is decided and governed by the available space and placement of all the other items that are required to make these cars run.

Sometimes you have to wait until you have the car in front of you to be able to plan the layout of these ancillaries so they don't clash with each other.

Dimi.

EFNFAST · Jul 3, 2012

I agree - biggest mistake of my build (aside from doing a stupid 900hp mythical engine I'll never see at this rate instead of a simple crate engine) was trying to position one component without everything infront of me. I ended up re-doing/re-routing everything multiple times because of that.

Troymx576 · Jul 3, 2012

Good points. I guess just excited about getting it and wanting to get a head start in things. At least I am keeping the engine simple to start with as a na v6 with 275hp.

WMM · Jul 3, 2012

My tank is 1.25gal. This is where and how I installed it.

Troymx576 · Jul 3, 2012

I plan on using the Bosch 044 for the pressure pump, but what is the common transfer pump as I have seen some different ideas there. Holley, but which one? Or something else?

I also see two fuel filters and was thinking one would be good, but thoughts?

molleur · Jul 3, 2012

You will need pre-filters and a post filter. 100 micron and 10 micron.
I'm using the Holley 12-125 125 GPH low pressure pump to feed the swirl tank
and a real Bosch 044 (lots of fakes out there) for high pressure. Wayne is doing
the same. Aeromotive bypass regulator after the fuel rails. Ensure the fuel tank is really cleaned out. Pre and post filters are a requirement for keeping the system clean. Using Aeromotive (or other) cleanable element filters is a good idea. Think about a shut-off valve on or near the fuel tank so you won't have to drain it to service components.

Read this Aeromotive technical bulletin:

http://aeromotiveinc.com/2010/01/fuel-filtration/

EFNFAST · Jul 3, 2012

Since you have fabrication skill why not consider sumping the gas tank? No need for extra clutter of a surge tank then.

WMM · Jul 3, 2012

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I did sump my fuel tank but liked that part from Integrated Technologies that mounts the 044 in the surge tank so much, I decided on that also.

I'm a real flip flopper. I voted for the surge tank before I voted on the sump before I voted for both. I think I've been following you ALEX to much.

I don't think one can rely on a sump to supply sufficient/constant fuel flow to HP pump when you track the car. My 1.25+gal surge tank will guarantees I will.

EFNFAST · Jul 3, 2012

WMM said:
 I did sump my fuel tank but liked that part from Integrated Technologies that mounts the 044 in the surge tank so much, I decided on that also.

I'm a real flip flopper. I voted for the surge tank before I voted on the sump before I voted for both. I think I've been following you ALEX to much.

I don't think one can rely on a sump to supply sufficient/constant fuel flow to HP pump when you track the car. My 1.25+gal surge tank will guarantees I will.

That just means your sump isn't deep enough

How are you extracting fuel from your sump? I see a fitting on the bank where I assume you'll connect your hose to?

I'm sure you've seen mine before, but I've got a pickup tube that sit close to the bottom of the sump ..... it would take a pretty low fuel environment + extended turn before I'd stop sucking fuel (which shuoldn't be a concern since I'm 100% street use)

IanAnderson · Jul 4, 2012

I saw this the other day and thought it was a great idea in our space restricted engine bays where one less item will need space found to allow it to fit!

A neat swirl pot with an internal hp pump

Testing the new RADIUM Fuel Surge Tank - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community

Ian

KENS80V · Jul 4, 2012

The Radium fuel surge tank is not a "swirl pot". A true swirl pot has fittings on the upper sides of the tank and swirls the fuel into the tank in a circular motion.

IanAnderson · Jul 4, 2012

Ken

that sounds fair
So take the Radium idea and place the inlets in the desired locations to get the required swirl

Still have one less "space taking" item to locate in the cramped engine bays

Ian

WMM · Jul 4, 2012

Ian, look at post #5 of this thread. The surge (swirl pot). This tank is probably bigger then needed, but I made to fit the space and I always heard bigger is better.

Rich_A · Jul 4, 2012

IanAnderson said:
I saw this the other day and thought it was a great idea in our space restricted engine bays where one less item will need space found to allow it to fit!

A neat swirl pot with an internal hp pump

Testing the new RADIUM Fuel Surge Tank - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community

Ian

Ian,
When the time comes, that will be the tank I use. :thumbsup:

Radium offers other tank/pump setups also, just to let others know.

Radium Fuel Surge Tanks

Troymx576 · Jul 4, 2012

When looking at the transfer pump I was wondering why such a large transfer pump. 125 gallons an hour. We have an 18 gallon tank and on a road course that sucks up fuel I can not imagine going through that much in an hour at most. Also, on the pumps those ratings are at 7psi or 14psi depending on which you buy so they can actually flow more than that. Wouldn't a 95 gph or less transfer pump be way more than enough? Not that I am going to use it, but I would think the little 35 gph could work if with a 1.5 gallon surge tank. All we are doing is keeping the surge tank topped off. I would think the smaller pump would draw a lot less amps and load so could be better. I am not trying to be super cheap on the fuel system, just wondering if it is so overkill and not worth it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G3136-1/
or
Brand New Mr Gasket 95H Electric Fuel Pump 95GPH 7 PSI | eBay

The other question is what happens if the transfer pump ever runs dry? Do we know which pumps can handle that or do they just die right away from it? I would think that they would not if they had some fuel in them to keep them lubricated a little bit, but I am not sure.

molleur · Jul 4, 2012

Troy,
That Holley pump is a demand style up to 125 GPH. If you need only 25 GPH, that's what it wiill deliver.
The pump only feeds the swirl tank and is self-priming. Should be something like this:
Fuel Tank
Pre filter
low pressure pump
swirl tank
post filter
high pressure pump
fuel rails
bypass regulator
fuel returns from the bypass regulator to the swirl tank
fuel return from swirl tank to main fuel tank

Troymx576 · Jul 4, 2012

I guess I do not understand how a fuel pump should work. In my head, we have a fuel pump that will pump 125gph at 7psi. You have less pressure the pump will pump more fluid and more pressure less fluid. As a transfer pump it should have almost no pressure so flow more. The only way it would flow less is with higher pressures. Now this all assumes the pump is just an electrical motor with a constant voltage. I would think the only way to change the pumps volume at a given pressure is to change the voltage and maybe the pump has some built in electronics to control it.

On the filter location I have seen pic where people mount the fuel filters after the pumps. I can see both benefits as is we pressurize the filter it might be more stable when it starts to get clogged a bit versus trying to suck the fuel through.

Rich_A · Jul 4, 2012

Troymx576,
These are the popular fuel pumps for a Ford fuel injected engine.

155 lph = 41 gph
190 lph = 50 gph
255 lph = 67 gph

All of them are rated over 40 psi.
They say the 155 lph = 41 gph is safe for up to 440 naturally aspirated flywheel hp.

Really don't need that high of a gph.

IanAnderson · Jul 4, 2012

My take on the pump sizing

The HP pump must be able to feed tour motor at max power.
So from that you will be able to size the LP pump.

If you never have fuel surge away from the tank pickup then the feed for the swirl pot could be equal to the flow of the HP as it will never suck air!

Now in my GT40 I do not have baffles and from about half tank under braking my LP pump sucks air. I can tell because I am running facet red top and it goes from click click to a hammering noise!

So if I brake from 200 m into a corner from speed, turn in and then get on the power the surge tank will need to supply fuel to the engine for 5 or 10 seconds.

When back on power the LP pump has to first draw fuel, then fill the pipes then try to refill the surge tank, and this is just the time when the HP pump is forcing max flow through the injectors. So in order to refill the surge tank it has to move more fuel than the amount the engine is consuming.

Again I can only say in my GT40 but under hard acceleration I can go through one acceleration gear before the LP pump stops hammering! So perhaps the facet is too marginal for my engine. Rover type and 256hp. And yet it could supposedly support 300 hp!

Also remember if the LP pump sees air there are varieties of them that die very quickly when run dry. Pump life is measured in minutes! Especially rotor vane pumps where the fuel cools the mechanism. No fuel no cooling and pump fails in shout order.

Lots to think about in setting up a successful system

Ian

Surge Tank

Troy Truglio

Dimi Terleckyj

Alex

Troy Truglio

Wayne

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