The induction debate.....

[Dean Lampe]

It is a cold damp day and I want to spend my time thinking about my gt40 project. Since Fran has everything under control with the chassis and body, and I have bought 2 ZF trannies (long story) all that is left is the engine. Actually most of that is being done by an excellent engine builder.

To the point. I have the option of a custom weber induction system with real italian webers or for about $1000 more, a TWM set up with a motec ECU. The engine has Yates heads and a deck height of 8.7 in. That is why everything is a little one off. Here is the dilima. I understand webers and have the ability to tune them. I still type with 2 fingers and the thought of depending on my computer skills to start, let alone tune my car is scary. The closest Motec shop is 5 hours away. I really do like the look of the webers. The fuel injection is truly state of the art. This is a road race car that will rum to 6500 rpm but mainly live between 3000 and 5500 rpm's. It will be about 380 cubes.

Like I said, I am a little bored so feel free to give me your opinions.boomsmile

 

[Doc Watson]

Injection is more economical and probably more reliable but for me it has to be webers.......

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/builders-forum/19346-gt40-engine-build-mirage-chassis.html

They look the business, they also sound the business and once set up will give you trouble free operation.... its just the setting up that takes time.

Its a bit like asking what kit to buy..... everybody has an opinion that is valid depending on originality, cost, economy and reliability. For me the big thing is originality and then cost..... couldnt afford an XE original block but found a 1966 289... and I saw an original dizzy go for over $4000 a few weeks ago so im looking for alternatives.... if its a MkI then it has to have webers.... just my 0.02c......

Andy

 

[Bernard]

.... I have the option of a custom weber induction system with real italian webers or for about $1000 more, a TWM set up with a motec ECU. The engine has Yates heads and a deck height of 8.7 in....

Hi Dean
Your induction project looks very nice but will not be easy if you select the Weber option. The main difficulty is to find a special manifold to adapt Weber carbs on Yates cylinder heads. Furthermore, with a 8.7" deck height block there is very few manifolds available on the market. I believe that the best way will be to build your own manifold or to order it to a manifold specialist such Hogan's
Hogan's Racing Manifolds
Weber + Yates association is fantastic. May be EFI system is more efficient but Weber carbs with Yates heads are good enough to expect more than 500hp from your SBF. I have this package on my engine and I have built a special manifold based on a standard Yates manifold. I use 48IDF carbs that have a shorter barrel center line than 48IDA.

 

[Dean Lampe]

Believe me, I know the pains of the unusual manifold. I found a shop in Indiana called Price motorsports and the owner has 1/2 intake flanges, cast aluminum runners and a billet weber mounting plate. It will all weld together into a nice custom piece. He is going to build a 3 piece intake for me. There will be a left and a right intake with a valley pan. The cool thing is that you can take the intakes off so easily. I think it will be basically the same as mine only less pieces.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Go Motec Efi - Still looks good - will match or better Weber HP figures - better road manners, especially on a more modified engine - better fuel consumption - can be 'tweeked' for ANY modifications to motor - NO FLOAT BOWLS - can be optimized for each individual cylinder's requirements - probably fewer parts - better emissions (if you're 'Green') - NO 'spit-back' fires when starting - Sounds as good as Webers inside the cabin - The Motec unit also includes fully programmable ignition, that again can be optimised for each cylinder if required and will allow you to add whatever future developments you may have in mind,traction control (for 'other/novice' drivers?), launch control, full throttle gear shift - full engine data logging (black box recorder - just in case ) -

and Finally

HOT,COLD, SUNNY or SNOW, one press of the button and off she'll go!

But hey - as I've always said, i'm biased -

 

[Dean Lampe]

Well the webers are on the way! I know what the charts say about not pulling to 6500 but my 408 runs awesome to 6500 then it hits the rev limiter. I like the look and they run great. It is 38 deg. outside and I backed the car out of the trailer and it started up and idled great. No chokes, no electronics. I think the 37mm chokes are a little small but I think my 42mm's give up to much bottom end performance. The lesson learned is "just shift"! I have 5 speeds and at 6500 in 5th I am going around 180mph.rockonsmile That is definately fast enough!

 

[chuck smith]

Dean, how much for the TWM set up?

 

[Dean Lampe]

The twm set up belongs to a friend of mine. He has a 460. I found a buyer for everything "460" and I was going to keep his Motec Tec3r and his fuel pump and then buy a new manifold and throttle bodies. He wanted $5000 for evrything. The 460 guy was going to give me $3500 for the 460 manifold and thottle bodies. I was going to buy the Bosch fuel pump and the ecu for $1500. If you want the pump and ecu, just let me know. Then all you need is the throttle bodies and manifold with injectors. Maybe a new wiring harness.

 

[Bill Musarra]

Go here for all that is TWM:

TWM Induction Official Website

The thing I liked most about the TWM setup is that the fuel lines run down the middle of the manifold away from the exhaust lines.What most are doing is taking the throttle bodies and swaping sides so that the fuel lines exit the front of the engine(see pic). It is a simple setup that requires you to select your own ECU as each person has their own requirements. They have links to most of the manufacturers(?) or types on their site. For my money, Motec is way over rated. There are some systems that have less and cost a whole lot less. but who needs traction control anway??? I can't remember the name of the brand my engine builder has selected(will post when we talk on Monday), but he was dead set against using Electromotive due to its complexity of setup(the one I choose). Once you type in sll the map points, if you don't make the correct sequence of key strokes all is lost. (no save feature) And you have to start over again. What I do know from looking at the software in action on a Mustang with twin turbos is that the car startup was a breeze, easy to modify settings and perameters.
Some of the systems require only a few imputs. Others require many more at more money for the services(Motec). There are some more knowledgeable than I on what it cost to use a Motec and its extra services. To me it is not worth the extra expense to get the "Black Box" thing when so many others give it to you with their first price. Once you look into what the requirements are(sensors), they make perfect sence. To get the right amount of fuel injected at the right time given the conditions(idle, WOT, mountian top, valley, etc.) and getting the firing of the plugs at the right time in the rotation sequence, requires imput of various things. Once set, it is done and you don't have to fiddle with it. The modern day automobile is basicly setup that way, especially if you have F I, which most cars today do.
So its just a case of you pay your money and you take your choice.

Bill

 

[JohnC]

The twm set up belongs to a friend of mine. He has a 460. I found a buyer for everything "460" and I was going to keep his Motec Tec3r and his fuel pump and then buy a new manifold and throttle bodies. He wanted $5000 for evrything. The 460 guy was going to give me $3500 for the 460 manifold and thottle bodies. I was going to buy the Bosch fuel pump and the ecu for $1500. If you want the pump and ecu, just let me know. Then all you need is the throttle bodies and manifold with injectors. Maybe a new wiring harness.

Dean, I believe that Tec3r is an Electromotive product, not a MoTeC. That might explain the very good price.

Electromotive, Inc. patented Direct Ignition and Total Engine Control

John

 

[Scott Calabro]

I agree with Doc ! Is that a picture of you Doc, for your avatar ? Talk about swagger !
Stay close to home with the aftermarket do it your self EFI, boys. Your day will be ruined by a simple bad ground or F@#%*D up chip. All you need with a carb is a working fuel pump and a spark !!!!!!! Now I"ll sit back and watch the fun start.

Cheers ! rockonsmile

Scott

 

[Dean Lampe]

Yes, it is an electromotive. Sorry. I am a carb guy as well. When something new comes out, I just want to see if it will make the ride better. I just don't see the benefit of the injection over the webers. The speed argument for track puposes is crazy. I comes down to a lot of variables including suspension and driver skill and tires to mention just a few. I think in most cases simple is the best solution.

 

[Doc Watson]

Scott, yes that is me...... 1990 when I was a navigator in the RAF.....

Andy

 

[Scott Calabro]

That's a great photo Doc. I figured you were old school ! I thought it might be a WWII photo you dug up somewhere. Hey I used to be a corporate flight engineer for a large multi-national oil company, now I keep my feet on the ground and turn wrenches, and have stayed in aviation maintenance now for 24 years. So you know I am crazy ! By the way COOL coffee table !

Cheers Mate,
Scott

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Dean,

Worst case: you get bored with Webers, sell them (for at least as much as you paid) and put something else on somewhere down the road.

Either way: It'll be a blast, right?

Keep the greasy side down and try not to let your cheek muscles lock up into a permanent smile. (Or better yet, do; It'll make people wonder what you've been up to!)


Lynn

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

ElectroMotive (if I have the name right) is a local company (well, sort of, 75 miles, in Manassas, VA). After I get 1149 running on the single Holley we dyno'ed it with, I will think about an EFI/EMS system. They cost a lot, though- hard to see getting away for any less than about six kilobucks. You can buy a lot of fuel for that kind of money....