Vendors on GT40s.com

[WEGENER Engineering]

I like the idea of a strong and growing cottage industry. If it takes an entry level tier to entice these guys to make "things few people need" I think that it is a win/win for all.
Those few cheapskates that abuse the system - well they are just symptomatic of today's society. At least we would get some money out of them compared to no money at all.

I am always looking for Sports Cars to buy. I am not particularly interested in advertising cars for sale but would be interested in running something like "Sports Cars Wanted" If you guys are OK with that maybe you can come up with an elegant idea on how to do that.

The free aspect of the forum should not be underrated. Most people are good and when they feel it is time to contribute they will. And those who fell on hard times often make up for it by being great members.

Mike

 

[Russ Noble]

Jeez Woodz428, such bitterness in a young lad...... I guess I must have hit a raw nerve........ If I offended you I apologise.

Contrary to your assumptions I do actually appreciate and value the tech. I was one of the few supporters of Wanni and Tirebiter when many other guys wanted them gone because of their controversial style and/or dealings. However the tech from both was excellent.

But we are talking about funding the forum and tech doesn't pay Rons forum bills, and that is the issue in hand at the moment. As Jimmymac has said if every user contributed a little there would never have been any need to invoke the hassles of opening the forum up to paying advertisers.

Maybe we could look at some compulsory minimal financial contribution from all members after they attain a certain post count say 20 or 50 or whatever. And after that they need to be paid up members to post. That would spread the burden a lot more lightly over a much larger number of financial contributors.

I'm just trying to make constructive suggestions but any system is always going to generate certain anomalies or perceived injustices and a contribution in the form of tech is one such instance. And I don't see any realistic way of taking this into account.

However Woodz428, maybe you have thoughts on how this could be achieved? I don't think anyone would want to lose the likes of Jac Mac if he was to go because we insisted on a blanket compulsory contribution. But hell, if that was a prospect I'd have no qualms about stumping up the cash for him! Someone you've helped may well do the same for you......

 

[JimmyMac]

How much annual funding do we need and what is our actual catchment if we need finance ?

There are more than 8500 members past and present.
Of those, only 1000 plus have actively participated and made more than ten posts.
Understanding that some people are private and do not wish to correspond, but there are also members who lurk on here and actually make good money from the contacts on this site and we all know them.

I like those those ideas of a nominal membership coupled with a top-up annual fee and the annual drive.
Clubs and associations should pay dues in accordance with their membership roll.

I am also leaning towards vendors fees but I am dead against them regulating sub-forums.
So I would suggest a single flat rate for kit-car suppliers, shop men, engine builders and the likes and small fixed fee for the 'parts stall' member.
The "parts stall" member will get enough space in the ''Market' sub-forum for 100 words and six jpg's to describe his wares.
Anybody can have a banner and the cost is fixed.

With these in conjuction with the membership fee structure it sounds more egalitarian and fair.

If there is any lesson to be learned from this exercise it is this : do not take your friends for granted and expect them to pay for the beer ALL of the time.
I will however gladly pay for Keith's and JacMac's.

 

[Jack Houpe]

I was a vendor at first but after a no sell (I always seem to have bad timing) just went straight to a sponsor the second year. Mark and I have talked about some similar items we make for GT40s. I have a several CNC machines and sell just enough rear windows a year to pay for one screw up on the machine. Margins are low and thank goodness we have a good business that supports my bad habits. I also do laser engraving which I know some people would fine interesting but if you add it all up its still not worth being a vendor for me. I wake up every morning looking forward to seeing what everyone has posted and have developed friendships with people I have never met. My point is I enjoy the site and try to support it. I have a couple ideas concerning income for the site. Most people will not pay the price for a great piece of art work but would spend 5 bucks on a drawing to win it. Why don't you have an area of the site for donations and auctions? I would be willing to donate and put on ebay for the profit of the site a couple items. Maybe one rear window for a SPF GT40 or laser etching of someones car on stone. I think more than how to attract vendors you should be wondering how to make money. If I got recognition for it then that would be payment enough, I think others that have spare parts or products they can afford to get rid of in benefit of the site would jump in. Just an idea. You could earn your membership star or lifetime support by donation.

 

[Charlie Farley]

I've recently been corresponding with Ron about the vendor issue.
I occasionally list parts for sale on here and have previously indicated to Ron,
willingness to participate in some sort of tiered vendor fee.
We all know who the big $$ vendors are on here, perhaps their fee should reflect that.
Just my two cents worth.

 

[Dave Wood]

I really took no personal offense Russ. I do realize we are talking about funding the forum, and Ron seems to want to create or leave in place whatever works the best. I wish to see that happen. In my rambling reply I was trying to illustrate the range of difference and arbitrary standard mentioned of having a website. Since I am not in the same league as say.....Lisle pharmeceuticals, we both have websites. Please don't misunderstand, I may become a supporter instead of advertiser, in reality, I don't expect to get much business from the advertising. I don't sell/stock parts, but I do custom fab a lot of stuff. That doesn't have any given return on advertising costs. But because I do build cars, there may be some niche' that I can fill. I do what I do because I love it, I have since I was maybe 5 in Cali. I worked all my adult life for several motorcycle dealerships in virtually every capacity, raised my kids on the meager income and still purchased a shop worth of tools/equipment free and clear. After my youngest graduated from High School about 12 years ago I decided to do what I had been doing at night at home. Not because I wanted/expected to get rich, but because I love it and am apparently pretty good at it, I'm lucky. So I was speaking initially from a position of making a decision as to whether I wanted to advertise or just be a supporter. I also appreciate your referring to me as a young lad...at 58 that's not a daily occurance

 

[Ron Earp]

Thanks for the comments and discussion. Please keep it up. I’m learning a lot.<o></o>
<o> </o>
I support about five other forums on the web, probably like many of you guys (www.fordmuscle.com, IT.com Forums, RoadRaceAutoX - Powered by vBulletin, http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/ etc). I don’t mind doing it at all because I sort of look at the forums as my magazines. Not coincidentally I’m sure, I have basically dropped all of my car magazine subscriptions since they seem so archaic in comparison to an interactive forum. <o></o>
<o> </o>
Each of these forums have various models to generate operating income. But, basically all are variations on a theme and similar to GT40s.com in many aspects. The one big difference is that some them are MUCH larger than GT40s.com. One of them had a good idea I would like to implement, a Tshirt for supporter status. It’d be fairly easy to do and offer a nifty little something for users who chose to support the forum at certain levels. <o></o>
<o> </o>
Anyhow, here are some interesting/basic forum statistics:<o></o>
<o> </o>

• <!--[endif]-->About 400 unique user logins a day, over 900 unique guests a day (guests don’t login, they are browsing with no user ID, tracked by unique IP)

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->Average about 13 new threads a day<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->Average around 95 posts per day<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->Operating costs the last year were around $4,700. Sometimes a bit more with license fees and installs. Improvements have been stagnant as of late.<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->86XX members<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->In the last year 3803 of these members have logged in (quite a high % when compared to most forums)<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->In the last two years 5894 of these members have logged in<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->3247 of them have a post count of greater than 1. Another interesting statistic that is also quite high. Most forums end up with around a 15% post rate of joiners, ours is much higher. <o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->We’ve around 60 forum supporters of premier (one time, life members), gold, silver, and bronze variety. Not very accurate this calculation due to system errors.<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->We’ve got around ten various vendor types active, give or take one.<o></o>

• <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->Over 150 members have over 75 messages in their private message boxes. Nine users have more than 500 in their box.

Got to eat lunch, more later...carry on

 

[Andy Sheldon]

Ron

I have been following this thread from the start with interest.

Being a vendor, with a banner advert and also a subforum I thought you might be interested in our thoughts.

We basically agree with Jimmymac and Malcolm that vendors should pay the same to be a vendor.

If you place a 1/2 page advert in a magazine it costs the 1/2 page price no matter what you are selling or how many.

If you want a Banner advert that should cost extra. Maybe you could offer different sizes at varying costs?

If you want a sub forum that should also cost extra.

If some are complaining about the high basic vendor costs lower the cost for everyone.

Thanks

Andy

 

[Fred W Ballinger]

One of them had a good idea I would like to implement, a Tshirt for supporter status.

Ron - I've been feeling guilty, as I am not a contributor. As for why, sending money from SA to anywhere is a pain, (not to mention the effect of SA's weak currency on what things cost). I haven't been able to get paypal to work from here for me, and I'm still wary of putting my credit card details up online

But that said, the T shirt offer would get me off my butt and to make a plan

Cheers

Fred W B

 

[Randy V]

If you place a 1/2 page advert in a magazine it costs the 1/2 page price no matter what you are selling or how many.

Having purchased 1/4 - 1/2 - Full Page ads for one of my businesses in the past I can tell you without qualification that this is incorrect.
-edit-
I just reread Andy's message - I think I may have taken it differently from it's intention..
-edit-

The frequency at which you place/renew ads has everything in the world to do with the price you pay.

In one particular magazine I was advertising in for over 1 year - When I was taking out full page ads monthly, they cost me ~5k per ad.
When I dropped those full page ads to every-other month (I'd taken out ads in other publications), the price increased to over 6k per ad.
When I threatened to pull my ads altogether - they made a market adjustment in my billing to split the difference with me. Subsequently - I took out 1/4 and 1/2 page ads that were placed right next to or directly across from my competition's ads.

Magazines and Newspapers have always been cut-throats...

-------------

Shirts / Jackets / Coffee Mugs / Umbrellas
::
Yes sir.... Sign me up! I've always been a sucker for these as long as the graphics are well done.

-------------

Web Sites -
I also don't believe that this can be a qualifier... I do some websites for small / cottage businesses on the side (for friends - aka - free or really cheap).. These folks could not afford to pony-up as though they were big well-established businesses..

Why create or have a tier for Cottage Industry?
Many Cottage businesses are strictly open on a month-to-month basis.. I would like to think we would find a way to help these guys make the decision to stay open another month.. There are a lot of parts for our cars that need to be made by someone. Given that our numbers are few (when viewed globally) - many of us rely on Cottage and Small Businesses to create and supply these parts.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

I'll just add my 2p worth - or should that be 50c....

I help Ron and the other moderators as often as I can and am fortunately in a position where I can often access the internet at very short notice to clear spam and other such crap.

I contribute financially as I also consider myself 'A N OTHER' user, nothing more but the enjoyment I get from reading posts, technical and otherwise is what keeps me popping back regularly.

Vendors of any description should contribute. They benefit (financially) from the forum, so the forum should benefit from their presence.

One thing though, IMHO I don't think 'lifetime' memberships are ever a good option. They may give an instant boost to funds but long term, the revenue stream just dies. I considered it but decided against.

I do also think it would be appropriate for there to be an annual fee for ALL members that want to post on the forum (questions OR answers alike) but to give visitors a 'flavour' of the forum, not have a fee required for the first X posts, or Y days. The 'Basic' fee need not be huge but with everyone paying, there should be a far more stable revenue stream to cover running costs - let's not forget that Ron does this as a hobby, not as a business. (I'm happy to maintain / oversee this Ron if considered a viable option).

Finally, on another forum I'm a member of (www.gsx1400.org), we have a 'Friday Auction' section. This entails items, services, whatever, being offered for the benefit of other forum members with all proceeds going to the org (excluding postage costs in some cases). I do conversions on motorcycle clocks and regularly offer one up for auction with all proceeds going to the org. People can often pick up a bargain and one person's junk may just be what another is looking for, so perhaps this could also be an additional ongoing method of support.?? If a go though, I would prefer it to be a 'members only' section as I feel those that support already should be 'first in line' to benefit from such a scheme.

So there, my 5p or $1 input - Bloody Inflation!! :laugh:

 

[Russ Noble]

------------

Web Sites -
I also don't believe that this can be a qualifier... I do some websites for small / cottage businesses on the side (for friends - aka - free or really cheap).. These folks could not afford to pony-up as though they were big well-established businesses..

Why create or have a tier for Cottage Industry?
Many Cottage businesses are strictly open on a month-to-month basis.. I would like to think we would find a way to help these guys make the decision to stay open another month.. There are a lot of parts for our cars that need to be made by someone. Given that our numbers are few (when viewed globally) - many of us rely on Cottage and Small Businesses to create and supply these parts.

A website regardless of cost is a statement of intent.They are out there trying to drum up business from Joe Public. A guy with some GT40 relevant jigs or patterns lying around that he is happy to use to help someone out is most unlikely to have a website about it. It's a matter of trying to differentiate these "cottage vendors", if you want them to have a presence for our benefit

As I said earlier if the website criteria does capture a lot of small time vendors in the high rate class then that will cause the higher rate to drop so it may not be that high anyway.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Im guessing, but is it the case that we get alot of guests coming to this site, because they are building their own cars, but don't wish to join.
They will have access to all the information about where to source items etc and also services.
In this general economic climate, even the big players on here must be feeling the squeeze. Is their a case to be made to limit the number of times guests can log on for free and introduce a membership fee for all ?
I'm not sure what the subscription should be . This would then shift some of the emphasis from raising the majority of the revenue from vendor sponsors.
I concur with Paul's comment about Life memberships. I've chosen a yearly one.

 

[Jim Pearson]

Ron Earp’s figures make interesting reading.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o></o>
<!--[endif]--> If the 400 registered members who logged-on today had each paid $12 per annum for the privilege, then that would meet the annual operating costs.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o></o>
<!--[endif]--> Similarly the 8600+ registered members only need to come up with $0.55 each for a whole year of full access rights, or the 3800 of them who actually logged-on in the last year just $1.25.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o></o>
<!--[endif]--> People’s circumstances differ and many are undoubtedly having a tough time – but look at these rough numbers – between $1 a month and $0.55 a year to cover costs. Surely not unaffordable.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o></o>
<!--[endif]--> This forum offers exceptional opportunities for information, entertainment and friendship, and we beneficiaries ought to be prepared to stump up these small amounts.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o></o>
<!--[endif]--> I signed up as a Life Member at an earlier time when the forum was short of cash as a means of contributing an immediate boost to the bank balance. I’d be quite happy to write off that fee and pay an annual subscription if universally adopted.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o></o>
<!--[endif]--> My vote is against using ownership of a website as qualifying criterion to be classed as a vendor.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Russ Noble]

Post deleted. Needs more thought.

 

[Darren]

How is this idea.
As a new member up to 50 posts for example, access as it is now
$5.00 annual fee there after
All Vendors $200.00
Banner adds $400.00
Vendor specific sub-forum $200.00
GT40's merchandise a great idea
Love the Friday auction idea
Some people will surf for free, some vendors operate without declaring and paying, this much will be true regardless of what is done. I think we need a solution that is 90% right, and work around the other 10% of issues as opposed to having a system that will make 100% of people happy, that just wont happen.
Any how that's my $7.45 worth (bloody GFC)

 

[Iain]

Ron,

I,like many others, really appreciate the effort you put in and would be happy to contribute to the ongoing running costs of the site , let me know what you fel is reasoable

Iain

 

[Jim Cowden]

I have read most of the posts on this if I have mist something I apologize.
I was a vendor on this site basically what I was selling was what I had developed for my RF.
At the time it worked out fine and sales were frequent obviously as time progressed their was a saturation point it started to thin out.

I fully expected this to happen and when my renewal came up I declined to take it back up again.

I set a web site up for the purpose of the GT40 .com sales with a total cost of $600 OZ,I dont see a $600 web site as being a major player it is a digital brochure and that is all it is.
People want to get an idea of what they are buying they need pictures prices or FAQ's.
It is a way of reducing your work as a vendor unless you like sitting on the computer all night answering questions.

I do consider myself a cottage industry it is not my main income in fact I consider to be pocket money ,at the time vendor fees were fine and I made good money off the site but when sales dropped to a level I pulled the pin.

A lower level of advertising would suit even if it were a page with advertisers names and web address 20 to a page if you know what I mean.
There are lots of talented people on this site they are happy to use these skills to make some extra $ and service other members needs.
One thing I know there are more people who want things and not enough people to make them.
Higher paying venders could see this as thinning out their potential sales because of the cottage guys in their having a go but I guess these are all the thing that will need to be sorted.

Or maybe (registered cottage ind guys) could sell in the for sale section only for a fee of x amount for Y period of time.

Paul Thompson
I agree the life member fees are a one off.
I looked at that and took the gold member $100 a year for that exact reason.
No free lunch ,the quality of this site is great and if you are serious even a small amount is better than nothing.

Jim

 

[Jac Mac]

Been thinkin about this issue ( In between having a private chuckle about Russ N's remarks to Dave Woods knowing that with Daves 155 posts that I would be well down Russ's Christmas card list by comparison with my 2000 odd ). You might well be asking, well Jack why have you never paid a sub etc, simple I've never got a round tuit, dithered over whether to make it easy for myself & simply buy/pay for the 28 yr life membership ( @ $300.00 thats $10.71 p.a., save me the hassle of reminders & procrastination & probability I would expire before the membership so it would be a win/win for GT40's.com. ).

Right now to the issue being discussed; Vendors on GT40's.com. To do this I have to try & put myself in the position of owner ( Ron in this case. Not easy for me to do as I am the original computer Dummy! WARNING: some of the stuff I am about to suggest may not even be able to be done, but the snotty, freckle faced kid with the hair gel & one whisker per sq cm that sold me this PC told me you can do anything with a computer!)

Vendors. Three tiers/levels of vendor.

T1.Premier-Highest grade with Banner. Own Forum for announcement of new products/developments by text , photo & video. Members able to post questions on these forums and NO Editing allowed by Forum owner or members at large. All Member posts to be removed by Forum software at an age period of say 10/20 days. ( this feature would help keep the Vendor sites relatively 'clean, tidy & factual' in relation to the products. ) Forum owners have two user ID's as part of the package one of those must be used to reply to posts & the other for making Forum announcements of new products/updates etc.
Cost: Annual forum fee, plus further fees calculated on the number of updates/announcements made @ say 3 month intervals. ( this should ensure that effective 'air time' is charged to those who use it, yet the trivial content of some posts etc is eliminated at each cleanup ).

T2. Vendor can post text & pics of goods/services. Member contact by PM or Email only.
Cost: Annual Fee, plus further fee calculated on number of updates @ 3 month intervals. ( obviously @ lower rates than T1 ).

T3. Vendor to only have contact details plus text list of goods/services offered.
Cost: Small annual fee only.

I feel that there are many vendors who have a product already available that would enjoy the exposure to members etc, but dont have the time or possibly the product doesnt even need constant forum exposure by way of posts etc.
.......................................................................................................................
REMEMBER, this might sound a bit tough on Vendors, but being Legit business's they can claim all or most of these advert costs back as expenses, so it doesnt really cost them, but you or I when we purchase their products.
........................................................................................................................
Build Threads: I dont think it would be unreasonable to charge an annual or one time cost at commencement of each build thread, you have the 'knowledge pool' of all the members literally at your disposal and it saves many of you countless hours & $$$ ( As long as you ask before you make the stuff up. ) Any build thread that is dormant after a one year period to go to a read only storage & only retrieved by the builder. ( You would effectively 'own' your build thread like a forum owner.)

Well thats it from me, could add more, but it gets too busy.

 

[Andy Sheldon]

Why not move the site to a free board?

There are lots of them available.

Andy