Walther GT40? GT40 P1005

There was an auction at the old Walther plant in Dayton (family business - Salt Walther) back in the early 2000s, maybe 02. They were auctioning off company property after the business had closed. Some one attending (seems like it was a magazine journalist maybe hoping to pick up some racing memorabilia) was taking a break during the auction walking around the property and stumbled upon a half buried GT40 behind one of the buildings. I remember the auction cause it was in the local news but I read about the discovery in one of my magazines. Anyone else know what I'm talking about? Was wondering what happened to the car.

After further digging (incorrect search wording) I see this is #1005 refered to in other posts. The Walther plant was by the miami river on sw side of Dayton.
 
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Ellis Hubbard

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Walther GT40?

As I understand it, the chassis plate (GT40P1005) went through several hands and ended up replacing the chassis plate on GT40P1127. 1127 was a Tennant Panel chassis that was numbered along with chassis 1126 (which I own) in the middle of the Safir build program. 1127 was then built up by John Ethridge in the UK as a MK 1. The car was beautiful, I saw it at Goodwood a few years ago as 1005, but the new owner didn’t want to discuss the chassis plate change. As the story was told to me, the chassis at the auction was first free, then sold for $ 50k and then sold for $ 250k, I heard that 1127 was purchased for $ 500k and then the plate was change. $ 750k for a GT40 with some history, not a bad deal if you have very deep pockets
 
Re: Walther GT40?

This is a really convoluted story involving my knowledge of 1005, it may be difficult to follow but you might find it interesting:

The auction mentioned by RogerC actually took place a couple years after George Walther's death (about 2002?) at The Boat House facility in West Carrollton, Ohio, a boat dealership along the Miami River owned by George Walther's wife, the facility of which included the Walther Indycar race shop. George Walther fielded an Indycar team from the mid/late 50's off-and-on through the mid 80's. From about '71 or 72 George's son Salt Walther drove off-and-on for the team. Indy 500 fans may remember the horific accident at the very start of the 1973 500 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRA9xJD-ucQ&feature=related ) in which Salt's car crashed very heavily, coming to a stop in flames upside down just passed the pit exit. In the mean time George's sons collected significant race cars like GT40s and Lolas.

George was apparently a pack rat, as the bulk of the auction lots were just wood crates full of Indy car junk used up over the years of racing. I attended the auction and understood that a Walther family friend helping out with the event was able to buy what ever was sticking out of the ground for around $200.

Yes, it was GT40P/1005, or the remains thereof, which was buried in the dirt behind the race shop about 20 years earlier along the river bank at the back of the property. Someone was trying to start 1005 but ignited it instead, and the warehouse it was parked in, also containing George's classic car collection (think V16 Lincolns, Duesies, and Packards), burnt to the ground. 1005 came to be burried on the site as the debris from the fire (supposedly or possibly also including the remains of a since long-lost and significant Lola CanAm car) was simply bulldozed under ground. By the way The Boat House and the Walther Indycar Race Shop is just a memory today, the site is now a City of Dayton Public Park, although the last time I was there there I did see a for sale sign offering the property for development. (Anyone interested in an investment that could possibly unearth a potential million dollar Lola?????)

The only thing sticking out of the ground by the time of the auction was the alternator bracket and a section of one of the heads. At the time, I did not know the family friend was first in line, but I had access to the Borrani wire wheels 1005 left the works with originally and wanted to see them reunited with the car. A couple of months after the auction, my first 1005-owner contact was with a guy out west somewhere (Oklahoma/Arkansas/Nebraska?) who supposedly acquired the remains of 1005 the day after the auction (have no idea today what his name was). He was very vague about what he actually had and what he actually paid but maybe this is the $50K Ellis refers to, which might make sense because I later heard the Walther's were going after the remains of 1005 on the basis they did not sell it or authorize the sale, once they learned of the size of the sum of money that was changing hands.

When I called to offer the Borranis, the owner stated he was having a guy named George (don't remember his last name) restore the car to bring it back to its LeMans configuration, which meant Halibrands, hence he had no interest in the Borranis. I had talked with this George guy a number of months before the Walther auction, as he wanted to sell me all his tooling, paterns, fixtures, parts and orders for GT40 exhaust systems. At that time he had a not so good reputation on GT40s.com for taking a lot of deposits and delivering almost no parts. (you can probably find those threads somewhere in the old old posts on GT40s.com if the site maintains data back to 2000, or ask Fran as he was one of the few fortunate that actually got exhaust parts from George). He explained he was moving on from piddling with exhaust to concentrate on reproducing exact copies of GT40 tubs, and sent me photos of some of his work which was impressive. It sounded plausible then, that he was hired to "restore" 1005. But think about that for a minute....what do you think would have been dug up after 20 years in the dirt next to a river bank that could possibly be restorable? FAV was not spending resources on rust resistant sheet metal in 1965. Think there was anything left to salvage and restore? And what about a chassis ID plate made of aluminum also in the soggy dirt for 20 years? I was told a while later by an involved individual that there was really nothing recognizable dug up under the alternator bracket.

What was physically purchased at or shortly after the Walther auction was basically a few exposed small parts and ownership rights to the chassis number GT40P/1005. The way that "ownership rights" was actually conveyed is another unanswered question, heh?

Skip ahead 5 or 6 years (about 2007).... I came across a guy who also knew some of the Walthers, better than I did. We got to talking about the buried GT40 that was "discovered" at the auction and I learned that it appeared there had been several people involved in "re-creating 1005" but that none of them were interested in talking about it to anyone. 1005 was supposedly sequestered as well, some mysterious reason it wouldn't/couldn't be shown. It was suggested there was something a bit fishy going on, part Walther lawsuit to recover it, part finageling to authenticate 1005's "restoration", etc. Hence my failure to re-connect with any of the Walther brothers and/or see 1005 as it now supposedly existed. I was also told at this time that someone paid high 6 figures to secure the "ownership rights" to 1005 and apply the chassis number to something other than anything that would have come out of the ground salvageable after 20 + years.

So now, we move to Goodwood and Ellis's visit/discussion with Safir GT40P/1127's owner as referenced in his post below. Owner reluctant to discuss the chassis plate change? Ya think????

I'd add all this up and conclude that some number of people schemed to try to make a lot of money on a scratch recreation of 1005. To be perfectly clear...this just pure conjecture on my part. But adding up what I know in this story to be fact, and all the hearsay I've picked up over the years regarding 1005, some of which is shared here, it seems someone was hoping no one would be looking for 10 years or so, to turn up with 1005 today with hopes to extract the $2 plus million the "real and continuous" 1005 would likely be worth in 2011.

To Ellis's last comment, "...not a bad deal if you have very deep pockets" I'll add a final thought "....and not a lot of integrity."


(Let me restate...I am not suggesting that my comments are accurate and factual and/or a description of anyone's specific actions. Some of the above is very factual information, I was there. A lot of the above is hearsay comments from people who could be considered to be "close" to the situation. I've drawn my conclusion that I consider to be fairly likely, from my interpretation of all I know and have heard ...but you will have to draw your own conclusion as to what you think has/is plausibly going on with 1005.)
 
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Re: Walther GT40?

Wow! Thanks James. I was hoping there would be a nice story behind a nice restoration. Didn't know it would be this kind of a story. Very interesting to say the least.
 
You might be interested in these photos of 1127 at Brands Hatch early in 2011.
 

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1005 was my road car 1971-75. Brown with gold stripes.
Purchased from Lodon Society photographer Julian Seddon.I paid £4600 if I recall
I sold it to Salt Walther for £17,000.

Current owner is Leo Voyazides.

There is a thread on all this in this Forums archive somewhere.

I have a box of stuff/photos/bills/aggravation letters/owner lists etc here in the house somewhere all about the car prior to it's destruction

It appears Walther only had the car a short while before it went up in smoke.

I believe UK racer Terry Drury paid £1800 for the car a few years before me.
It was painted chav purple.
 
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Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Sorry about that. Sorted now!

Silvergirl,

This is what I refered to:

Use Your Real Name: If you have signed up with some sort of “handle” go to your User Control Panel (User CP link in the menu bar) and change your Public Name under “Edit Your Details” to your real name. GT40s.com does not support user handles. We wish to know who we’re talking to and who is accountable for their posts on the forum.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Guys,

This is a very interesting thread.

I remember reading an article about Salt Walther a few years back. Its kind of a sad story, he was born to a very wealthy family, but it appears that life has not been good to him. He raced Hydroplanes and Indy cars with not much success.

Of course he had that horrible crash at Indy back in the early 1970's, he was terribly burned, not too long after that his brother was killed in an Unlimited Hydroplane accident. Then the fire in the shop.

Apparently he became addicted to pain killers after being burned.........then he seemed to spiral down hill, untill today, where I think he is currently in prison.

It seems that being born with a silver spoon in your mouth is not always as good as you would think.
 
I would think what was retrived from the ground would look like the attached photos?

jim p
 

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Does anybody know which car the silver one is in the background, and have any pictures of that one please.
 
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