I'm surprised that, given your interest in accuracy and the history of the cars, you don't appear to be famiilar with Holman Moody, which ran one of the two GT 40 teams at Le Mans (3rd in 66) and elsewhere.
What is the most historically accurate replica/kit currently being produced?
- Thread starter oldtimer
- Start date
I'm surprised that, given your interest in accuracy and the history of the cars, you don't appear to be famiilar with Holman Moody, which ran one of the two GT 40 teams at Le Mans (3rd in 66) and elsewhere.
Only one word: "WOW"
How refreshing to see such openess in all their work. The detail on this website alone should answer many many questions and settle quite a few arguments regarding "originality" and "continuation"
What craftmanship and dedication...
Thanks for posting the link..
How refreshing to see such openess in all their work. The detail on this website alone should answer many many questions and settle quite a few arguments regarding "originality" and "continuation"
What craftmanship and dedication...
Thanks for posting the link..
Ron Earp
Admin
Thanks for posting the link..
RE: Link
I deleted Gorrick's post. He has probably posted on this forum 20 times and about every post has simply been the same "Try XYZ and lists the link". His profile lists him as "car builder". As far as I can tell it is unsolicited advertising. Queries in his direction have gone unanswered. If you or Jac Mac wish to post it up fine by me, just a question of procedure for me.
Good Lord! What an unexpected reply! I have never heard of this gentleman before I am sorry, and I have also never previously seen the Gelscoe site but I am grateful for his link if only to further my knowledge of the marque. It may or may not have been unsolicited advertising, but I can assure you it fell on deaf pockets here, interesting though it was.
I may be wrong, but isn't "Gorrick" either the owner or potential owner of Gelscoe 0001?
At least that's what was listed under his GT40 Type entry...
Perhaps it might be helpful if you could display a list of posters we should ignore in future mate.
Appleseed out....
Ron Earp
Admin
Hi Keith,
No need to take offense. I didn't want to remove his post without writing an explanation. That particular user only has 4 posts to his name, that is because I deleted the other 15 or so he's made in the last year that simply say the following: "XYZ is the best. Go to this website and you'll see". And then he was gone for a few weeks til he made more of them.
Without knowing what he is or what he's doing I saw no other way to handle it properly. I don't always make the right decisions.
The company that is being discussed here is Gelscoe. I don't care if the members post links and discuss companies, that is what they're here to do. But it irks me if someone comes on the board, posts "Go look at this, it is the best" and continually posts the same thing over and over.
Ron
Keith, Ron and others,
Maybe I am missing some important information/history around Gelscoe but it sounds like a promising proposition when reading on their web page, e.g.
"After obtaining the complete and original set of GT40 drawings a number of years ago, Gelscoe Motorsport set out on the long road to recreating the 100% perfect GT40." and "The FIA now look upon the Gelscoe Motorsport example as the official continuation GT40 Car, not only due to the 100% detail, but the fact the Cars are constructed from the original drawings. All the Cars built by Gelscoe Motorsport have been granted FIA HTP Papers. Chassis one has been raced in the Masters Historic Race series."
Hacking through the jungle of statements and claims on different replicas it is really hard to get a view of who is the real deal or not apart for some exceptions such as HM that are i) in the SAAC ii) have a proven product and iii) a proven market price. Hence it is all important to have as many different views as possible before putting any money to the table. On my behalf I prefer the views of previous buyers. Anyone with first hand experience from Gelscoe?
BR
Maybe I am missing some important information/history around Gelscoe but it sounds like a promising proposition when reading on their web page, e.g.
"After obtaining the complete and original set of GT40 drawings a number of years ago, Gelscoe Motorsport set out on the long road to recreating the 100% perfect GT40." and "The FIA now look upon the Gelscoe Motorsport example as the official continuation GT40 Car, not only due to the 100% detail, but the fact the Cars are constructed from the original drawings. All the Cars built by Gelscoe Motorsport have been granted FIA HTP Papers. Chassis one has been raced in the Masters Historic Race series."
Hacking through the jungle of statements and claims on different replicas it is really hard to get a view of who is the real deal or not apart for some exceptions such as HM that are i) in the SAAC ii) have a proven product and iii) a proven market price. Hence it is all important to have as many different views as possible before putting any money to the table. On my behalf I prefer the views of previous buyers. Anyone with first hand experience from Gelscoe?
BR
But remember this car is not a 1965-1969GT40 (MK1) but a 7 litre (427) MKII. As his brochure shows he will build one of these cars to 1966 MKIIA specs or 1967 MKIIB specs. when they were first launch the price was I believe $750000!! But then you are getting an exact recreation of the MKII.
Regards Allan
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
I think you might be best to talk to Claude Nahum about Gelscoe as it was they that he entrusted his car to for repairs. Also Adrian Newey at Red Bull racing could give you an insight about Gelscoe. As far as who has a Gelscoe car I cannot help you. I believe that Gelscoe are just about as good as you can get at the moment.
I would also reccomend Ray operating at Mirage in Poole , Dorset. Lovely man and so very helpful. Another superb product and having seen the painstaking attention to accuracy that Ray is insisting on, now certainly an equal to Gelscoe.
If I had the money and was in the market for a tub/monocoque I think it would be Ray who would get my money.
I confess I have not seen other cars such as HM, GOX etc and I therefore can only comment on what I have seen.
At the moment I have a GTD Look-a-like silhouette GT40 which has done the grand total of 6 miles since 1992.
I would also reccomend Ray operating at Mirage in Poole , Dorset. Lovely man and so very helpful. Another superb product and having seen the painstaking attention to accuracy that Ray is insisting on, now certainly an equal to Gelscoe.
If I had the money and was in the market for a tub/monocoque I think it would be Ray who would get my money.
I confess I have not seen other cars such as HM, GOX etc and I therefore can only comment on what I have seen.
At the moment I have a GTD Look-a-like silhouette GT40 which has done the grand total of 6 miles since 1992.
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Dutton
Lifetime Supporter
RJB,
Once you've determined the top two or three chassis' on your list, I'd strongly suggest speaking privately and directly, if you can, with previous customers. You'll get a real feel for the quality of the product as well as how easy the seller is (or isn't) to deal with.
The early-on excitement of a purchase can become really frustrating, even downright disappointing, when the seller doesn't follow through on their commitment, builds a poor quality product or refuses to reply to email or telephone calls.
T.
Once you've determined the top two or three chassis' on your list, I'd strongly suggest speaking privately and directly, if you can, with previous customers. You'll get a real feel for the quality of the product as well as how easy the seller is (or isn't) to deal with.
The early-on excitement of a purchase can become really frustrating, even downright disappointing, when the seller doesn't follow through on their commitment, builds a poor quality product or refuses to reply to email or telephone calls.
T.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Tim,
I think all you will ever get is a subjective opinion as very few people will admit to buying a mistake. I made a mistake but this website did not exist at the time, or if it did I did not know of it. Now I would not have bought a GTD. To me it seems everyone who has a GTD or an RCR or whatever will proclaim their build out of some sort of brand loyalty. That's fine in some ways but it doesn't allow a newby to make any objective decisions. You can talk away into the early hours with various owners and they will fill you with what really is a load of bollocks. I think it is very much Caveat Emptor and if anyone is going to splash so much cash and is trying to pursue authenticity by getting a true replica - not the GTD type of car that I have - then he should go to each production facility and look at what is available. You get what you pay for unless you are stupid.
I think all you will ever get is a subjective opinion as very few people will admit to buying a mistake. I made a mistake but this website did not exist at the time, or if it did I did not know of it. Now I would not have bought a GTD. To me it seems everyone who has a GTD or an RCR or whatever will proclaim their build out of some sort of brand loyalty. That's fine in some ways but it doesn't allow a newby to make any objective decisions. You can talk away into the early hours with various owners and they will fill you with what really is a load of bollocks. I think it is very much Caveat Emptor and if anyone is going to splash so much cash and is trying to pursue authenticity by getting a true replica - not the GTD type of car that I have - then he should go to each production facility and look at what is available. You get what you pay for unless you are stupid.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
David, I do not agree. (sorry) I for one am happy to relate the good and the bad outcomes of the choices I have made during my quest for a GT40. Some choices turned out well, others not so good. Questions are welcome.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
That's OK Jim. I think you've had a lot of experience on what not to do as well and that sort of advice is priceless for any newby starting out. If you had done the leg work first, would you have done it differently ? Maybe. Maybe not. I shudder to think how much effort ( and money?) you have put into your car.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I referred to some of this in a post above. I estimate that I will have at least $200K in my car when it is finished- and the definition of "finished" is a moving target. "Finished" to me means that the car runs and drives, can be taken out and driven on a trip or the track, and come reasonably close to the performance and experience one would have had in a similar car back in the day. By that criteria, my Kirkham is finished. It seems reasonable to have the same expectations here. That does not include 100% originality or a show-quality paint job, although the level of fiberglass work and finishing in the Annapolis area is very good indeed, because there are so many boatyards here that do FRP and paint work. I expect that the car will look very good indeed, but not Brazilian bikini-wax good. Well maybe close. No body fat on a GT40, anyway.
If you want to attempt this, the key things to remember are the following:
-GT40s are inherently far more complex cars than Cobras. Not that the systems are that much more complex (although all the remote plumbing etc makes a difference), but the basic structure of everything is a lot more tricky than a Cobra. This complicates EVERYTHING.
-if you buy a roller and then put in your engine and transaxle and get it going, you will STILL have plenty of work to do and will definitely feel as if the car is yours, no question. This route was not available to me. SPF wasn't around, CAV wasn't around- the only people around were ERA. I think they make a nice car, but the presence of Chevrolet Corvette parts in the build was a discouraging factor for me. I don't think Fords, even copies of Fords, ought to have Chevy parts in them. (full disclosure, 1149 has a Weber clutch disc that is actually a Ch--y part number, because of the transaxle splines. Muy tragico, senor) I had quite a bit of work to do getting the Kirkham going, and it is the best Cobra replica going. Good enough for CS, anyway, who is their biggest customer. For myself, if I were starting now, I'd buy an SPF car, maybe even their race model, and tailor to suit. As a matter of fact, if someone offered me a lot of money plus an SPF car for 1149, I might seriously entertain the idea.
-creating a vintage 1965 car from scratch is an idiotically difficult undertaking for a professional race shop. It is completely mad for a person like me who isn't even a trained mechanic to try to do it or supervise it. ("for God's sake, Jim, I'm only a doctor") I would not try this again. The amounts spent SO FAR would easily pay off my house mortgage and buy me some very nice cars in the bargain. Like the 365 Boxer I had to pass up, and others I don't want to even think about. Three or four of them could have been in the garage instead of 1149.
Upsides? I've met a lot of terrific people, I've learned a lot, I know a lot of things I didn't know, and when the car is done I will have created one more of a car which was a legend in its own time and is still al legend in ours. And some night, I hope, I'll drive across the Bay Bridge and head up US 301 and open it up, praying I don't get clocked on radar, and try to imagine what it must have been like to drive those wet and dark roads in midsummer in France in the 1960s, when these cars were in their glory and won the races they were designed to. For a middle-aged doctor, that is probably as good as it's going to get.
Well maybe close. No body fat on a GT40, anyway. If you want to attempt this, the key things to remember are the following:
-GT40s are inherently far more complex cars than Cobras. Not that the systems are that much more complex (although all the remote plumbing etc makes a difference), but the basic structure of everything is a lot more tricky than a Cobra. This complicates EVERYTHING.
-if you buy a roller and then put in your engine and transaxle and get it going, you will STILL have plenty of work to do and will definitely feel as if the car is yours, no question. This route was not available to me. SPF wasn't around, CAV wasn't around- the only people around were ERA. I think they make a nice car, but the presence of Chevrolet Corvette parts in the build was a discouraging factor for me. I don't think Fords, even copies of Fords, ought to have Chevy parts in them. (full disclosure, 1149 has a Weber clutch disc that is actually a Ch--y part number, because of the transaxle splines. Muy tragico, senor) I had quite a bit of work to do getting the Kirkham going, and it is the best Cobra replica going. Good enough for CS, anyway, who is their biggest customer. For myself, if I were starting now, I'd buy an SPF car, maybe even their race model, and tailor to suit. As a matter of fact, if someone offered me a lot of money plus an SPF car for 1149, I might seriously entertain the idea.
-creating a vintage 1965 car from scratch is an idiotically difficult undertaking for a professional race shop. It is completely mad for a person like me who isn't even a trained mechanic to try to do it or supervise it. ("for God's sake, Jim, I'm only a doctor") I would not try this again. The amounts spent SO FAR would easily pay off my house mortgage and buy me some very nice cars in the bargain. Like the 365 Boxer I had to pass up, and others I don't want to even think about. Three or four of them could have been in the garage instead of 1149.
Upsides? I've met a lot of terrific people, I've learned a lot, I know a lot of things I didn't know, and when the car is done I will have created one more of a car which was a legend in its own time and is still al legend in ours. And some night, I hope, I'll drive across the Bay Bridge and head up US 301 and open it up, praying I don't get clocked on radar, and try to imagine what it must have been like to drive those wet and dark roads in midsummer in France in the 1960s, when these cars were in their glory and won the races they were designed to. For a middle-aged doctor, that is probably as good as it's going to get.
Dutton
Lifetime Supporter
You make an excellent point, David. It's disappointing to think that, when asked privately and offline, the finer details of the success/failure of a given make/manufacturer wouldn't be told.
Those fortunate enough to have actually built (or had built) a GT40 are in a position to help the next enthusiast satisfy that same dream we had, but to accomplish that dream with less pain. My position is that if we can help eliminate for someone some of the grief or hassle we experienced, then we've done the right thing.
While I may not share all the details in my build thread, if asked privately, I have no reason to be anything but truthful.
Those fortunate enough to have actually built (or had built) a GT40 are in a position to help the next enthusiast satisfy that same dream we had, but to accomplish that dream with less pain. My position is that if we can help eliminate for someone some of the grief or hassle we experienced, then we've done the right thing.
While I may not share all the details in my build thread, if asked privately, I have no reason to be anything but truthful.
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Oldtimer,
Approximately 2 years ago I had a very similar quest, I wanted a very original gt40 with a small block Ford, a ZF transaxle and a holly 4brl, just as the original street cars (not 600 hp & 17' rims but a true gt40).
After checking around I decided on the Superformance Mk1, as it is with a few minor exceptions the most original car for the money and it is the only one that can legally be called a gt40, and has the "continuation" serial numbers.
I paid $69,000 for the chassis (leather, 2 Gurney bubbles and fire system).
The car was competed in early Nov of last year and I have put over 6,000 miles on it.
With a few minor exceptions (winshield wiper failed and the ac kept blowing fuses) I have really really loved it.
If your expectations are for a 1960s' British race car I think you will be very pleased.
Approximately 2 years ago I had a very similar quest, I wanted a very original gt40 with a small block Ford, a ZF transaxle and a holly 4brl, just as the original street cars (not 600 hp & 17' rims but a true gt40).
After checking around I decided on the Superformance Mk1, as it is with a few minor exceptions the most original car for the money and it is the only one that can legally be called a gt40, and has the "continuation" serial numbers.
I paid $69,000 for the chassis (leather, 2 Gurney bubbles and fire system).
The car was competed in early Nov of last year and I have put over 6,000 miles on it.
With a few minor exceptions (winshield wiper failed and the ac kept blowing fuses) I have really really loved it.
If your expectations are for a 1960s' British race car I think you will be very pleased.
