So, I think the saddest thing that's going to happen is 10 years or so down the line (probably less). When the systems is so overloaded, running financially out of control, and just so broken... the supporters of this bill are not going to know why we are in such a mess.
Health care "reform" passes
- Thread starter OC_
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Dont fall for all of the hype, HC needs to be addressed, or are you one of those who believes that we should "just wait and fix it later?"
The problem with fixing something after it breaks is that when it breakes it usually takes other stuff with it
The problem with fixing something after it breaks is that when it breakes it usually takes other stuff with it
There are ways to fix the HC problem. It is just too bad that the government thinks that they are the ones to fix it. Don't kid yourself about this bill that passed is about HC. It is about taking control of another 6% of the total GDP of the USA. The government is now in control of over 50% of the GDP. This country is now a socialist country.
I'm very confused by all the negative reactions to these healthcare reforms. I know here in the UK we moan about the National Health Service, but it is just fantastic when you think of the alternatives.
I have a very dear friend who is suffering very badly with a terminal Brain tumour. His care has been exemplary under the NHS, my wife had a minor op a while ago, again, fantastic service and treatment. We don't have healh insurance as such to pay for these thing, but we DO all contribute to the funding.
I'm sure if it is well run, it will be a good thing for the US.
Simon
JMHO
I have a very dear friend who is suffering very badly with a terminal Brain tumour. His care has been exemplary under the NHS, my wife had a minor op a while ago, again, fantastic service and treatment. We don't have healh insurance as such to pay for these thing, but we DO all contribute to the funding.
I'm sure if it is well run, it will be a good thing for the US.
Simon
JMHO
I would not be so adamently against this system if all the @holes up on the hill were not exempt from it...
If it's good enough for us "commoners" - it should be good enough for them.
NO?
Screw them...
One thing for sure is that O'Billion and Pelosi have pretty much guaranteed that all incumbents will be voted out of office and the Current Democratic stronghold on the administration of the United States will be over...
If it's good enough for us "commoners" - it should be good enough for them.
NO?
Screw them...
One thing for sure is that O'Billion and Pelosi have pretty much guaranteed that all incumbents will be voted out of office and the Current Democratic stronghold on the administration of the United States will be over...
Bottom line is health care needs fixing, and some of the stuff passed is good. But I expect the dems will get booted out of office in November, doctors will drop out of the program (not sure what they will do), unemployment will increase (I know a small businessman in Chicago who said he and his colleagues will do what it takes to keep their tax liability as low as possible), and those who are in trouble with HC now will not get what they need, so they may still go BK.
I agree that it needs fixing, but why so much all at once? Surely this could have been done incrementally.
I also think that its difficult to compare the UK with the USA in this regard since I'm not sure how our illegal immigration problem is going to play into this. I know right now, things are 'ok', but there is some very strong forces here who want to extend this to 'everyone'.
I also think that its difficult to compare the UK with the USA in this regard since I'm not sure how our illegal immigration problem is going to play into this. I know right now, things are 'ok', but there is some very strong forces here who want to extend this to 'everyone'.
Hold the phone didn't the UK just drop the isle of man from ceverage? If the health care is so great why does anyone that has the means COME HERE FOR CARE? Why has there been more medical advance from the hospitals here THAN ANY WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD? I could go on and on about this but what is the point as what is done is done. We have just born witness to the death of democracy (Not one rep. vote) and the rise of socialism (didn't we just BREAK DOWN THAT WALL?). I can not wait until the anointed one is out next term (real reason for the push as he has stated that he knows he is going to be a 1 term pres.) and we get our house back in order. The best thing is that this almost certainly ensures that most if not all incumbants will be out (about time).
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Because we ignore what actually works and instead increase taxes in an effort to pay for things that there isn't any money to pay for.
Safeway presented a wonderful model of health insurance working, improving health of employees, and decreasing costs. But did we look at what works as a model? No. The democrats deemed the underlying basis (differences in premiums based on 4 basic health indicators) as discriminating.
Want to reduce insurance premiums? Allow competition, such as across state lines. How can you argue with the concept? Nope. Instead the government forces insurance companies to cover high risk - high cost customers (pre-existing conditions) and without a cap (cannot set max on coverage). And people think this is NOT going to increase premiums? are you kidding me?
And you are going to try to pay for all these extra benefits with an increase in capital gains tax? Let's see how that works out. Any accountant will tell you: increase capital gains, and people just won't get themselves in a position where they have to pay it. That theoretical revenue boost will prove to be hollow. And we will just end up with the bill.
Oh, and my reimbursement just got cut 21%. Not my take home, my reimbursement. After we pay our 30 employees, that will probably cut my salary in half. Will that kill me? No, I still will do better than the poor sods in primary care. I cannot imagine what they think.
And every time someone makes some "rich doctor" comment I just have to think... what do all the guys that I have spent money with the last 2 years building a GT40 think about that? Cause that money won't be going out anymore. Last I looked, hardworking people need clients with money to spend. Well, there will be at least one less putting cash into the economy.
Unfortunately, there are no examples of "well run" government programs in the US. Healthcare will become just another statistic, and paid for by the tax-paying minority.
I'm a physician, in practice for less than 10 years. If the draconian cuts in physician reimbursement go through (along with the attendant tax increases), I will give up my practice of medicine. I work too hard for too many hours to take what will amount to a 25-30% pay cut. I've had this discussion with my wife also, and she agrees. Many other physicians are in the same boat.
You have to understand, in the US, a medical education is not paid for by the government (it easily costs $150K-250K, exclusive of undergrad costs). I was poor and deeply in debt until my late 30s. I just paid off my student loans, and have essentially been working 60+ hour weeks since graduating high school. I live in a very modest neighborhood. I'm no dummy (don't ask my wife), and am sure I could have/can do well in any number of alternative vocations. The government knows that there is going to be a mass exodus of US-trained physicians, and has for years been handing out VISAs to foreign-trained doctors (universally educated in their own countries at government expense). These docs come to the US with no debt, and no need to pay off six-figure student loans.
Say hello to your new doctor...Samdeep Gupta. That is going to be the reality, perhaps you've already noticed?
You'll also notice that there is no mention of "tort reform." The Dems will say that the rising cost of malpractice premiums is only a tiny, insignificant fraction of healthcare costs. BS. They totally ignore the practice of "defensive medicine," and the fact the US government/military hospital system is legally exempt from being sued. That's not much of an endorsement of the status quo. You may realize that in some states (east coast/southeast) malpractice insurance for OB/GYNs is either very, very expensive (deep into the 6 figures), or nearly unobtainable. But I’m sure that its just because the physicians in that area are unusually inept, and it doesn’t really affect the cost of healthcare. Right! And the fact that the trial lawyers own the democrat party (along with the unions, who got some really sweet healthcare exemptions, BTW) has nothing to do with the current plan. Right! Again!
I’m sure we’re all pleased by the "new era" in government promised by Obama, where there would openness, transparency and no backroom dealing. Right….you get the picture.
Needless to say, the medical community is not in good spirits, and the average Joe is in for some surprises if this goes through (after all the courts are finished with it). But to compare the US system to that of any other country is to greatly over-simplify the situation.
I'm a physician, in practice for less than 10 years. If the draconian cuts in physician reimbursement go through (along with the attendant tax increases), I will give up my practice of medicine. I work too hard for too many hours to take what will amount to a 25-30% pay cut. I've had this discussion with my wife also, and she agrees. Many other physicians are in the same boat.
You have to understand, in the US, a medical education is not paid for by the government (it easily costs $150K-250K, exclusive of undergrad costs). I was poor and deeply in debt until my late 30s. I just paid off my student loans, and have essentially been working 60+ hour weeks since graduating high school. I live in a very modest neighborhood. I'm no dummy (don't ask my wife), and am sure I could have/can do well in any number of alternative vocations. The government knows that there is going to be a mass exodus of US-trained physicians, and has for years been handing out VISAs to foreign-trained doctors (universally educated in their own countries at government expense). These docs come to the US with no debt, and no need to pay off six-figure student loans.
Say hello to your new doctor...Samdeep Gupta. That is going to be the reality, perhaps you've already noticed?
You'll also notice that there is no mention of "tort reform." The Dems will say that the rising cost of malpractice premiums is only a tiny, insignificant fraction of healthcare costs. BS. They totally ignore the practice of "defensive medicine," and the fact the US government/military hospital system is legally exempt from being sued. That's not much of an endorsement of the status quo. You may realize that in some states (east coast/southeast) malpractice insurance for OB/GYNs is either very, very expensive (deep into the 6 figures), or nearly unobtainable. But I’m sure that its just because the physicians in that area are unusually inept, and it doesn’t really affect the cost of healthcare. Right! And the fact that the trial lawyers own the democrat party (along with the unions, who got some really sweet healthcare exemptions, BTW) has nothing to do with the current plan. Right! Again!
I’m sure we’re all pleased by the "new era" in government promised by Obama, where there would openness, transparency and no backroom dealing. Right….you get the picture.
Needless to say, the medical community is not in good spirits, and the average Joe is in for some surprises if this goes through (after all the courts are finished with it). But to compare the US system to that of any other country is to greatly over-simplify the situation.
Well just to show how this is going to backfire on the gov't here is something that just happened about 1/2 hr ago. My Fiancee and her coworkers get called into an emergency meeting today for you guessed it a RAISE IN THEIR MEDICAL INSURENCE effective next month. That has to be the biggest coincidence in history!!!! This bill gets passed last night and the very next day the insurence companies raise rates ...... wait I thought that this was supposed to LOWER RATES :furious: .
Hallelujah ,,,,THANK GOD no RePOOPlican voted for it.
Ahhhh 3 more years,,I hope the government take over the entire country ,,,,injecting a large DOSE of socialism in the BUTT of “mother of all Capitalism” ,,,,,,,I love it,,,,it is F A N T A S T I C. Looooooong overdue.
DemoCRAPS finally found their backbone (the one they never have). Gutless/worthless dogs that they are, none of them will be re-elected (so what, who cares!!!).
As for the “Black One” (I like him), he just wanted 4 years. Hopefully he will “INJECT” more doses of PAIN directly into the hemorrhoids of Capitalism.
I hope everyone in the country is forced to own and drive one car, a Soviet era Vehicle!
Your friendly Comrade,,,,, Sheik
Ahhhh 3 more years,,I hope the government take over the entire country ,,,,injecting a large DOSE of socialism in the BUTT of “mother of all Capitalism” ,,,,,,,I love it,,,,it is F A N T A S T I C. Looooooong overdue.
DemoCRAPS finally found their backbone (the one they never have). Gutless/worthless dogs that they are, none of them will be re-elected (so what, who cares!!!).
As for the “Black One” (I like him), he just wanted 4 years. Hopefully he will “INJECT” more doses of PAIN directly into the hemorrhoids of Capitalism.
I hope everyone in the country is forced to own and drive one car, a Soviet era Vehicle!
Your friendly Comrade,,,,, Sheik
Here's what's broken with US healthcare: medical schools aren't graduating enough docs. The med schools artificially restrict the number of new docs coming into the system for the sole purpose of maintaining and inflating salaries. They say it's to "maintain the highest standards" and such but that's just bs. GP docs should be $100K/year, not $250K/year. Specialist docs should be $150K/year, not $500K. Increasing the number of graduates doesn't mean that standards have to come down....perhaps quite the reverse in fact.
Of course, no politician (or anyone of any importance in the debate for that matter) has the backbone to say that publicly.
Dramatically increase the number of new docs being graduated would cut costs in an equally dramatic fashion. Docs in national health system in the UK, for example, are paid substantially less than here in the US. And, no, liability coverage for docs in the US is not the difference - not even close.
I suspect the above is offensive to a doc or two on this site - no offense intended.
Of course, no politician (or anyone of any importance in the debate for that matter) has the backbone to say that publicly.
Dramatically increase the number of new docs being graduated would cut costs in an equally dramatic fashion. Docs in national health system in the UK, for example, are paid substantially less than here in the US. And, no, liability coverage for docs in the US is not the difference - not even close.
I suspect the above is offensive to a doc or two on this site - no offense intended.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
I think it was Mrs.Thatcher that said, "the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of the ability to spend other people's money."
Cliff,
Got news for ya...the doctor supply in US has little to do with the number of US graduates. There are ample (a nearly unlimited supply) of foreign medical grads coming to our shores.
You are right about medical schools limiting the number of US grads...there are numerous applicants for every seat in every class of every medical school. As the pay decreases, which it is, you can expect those seats to be filled with students who otherwise would have gone into...say, underwater basketweaving. The sharpest applicants will go elsewhere, where their brainpower and work-ethic will be rewarded more handsomely. Lets face it, anyone with even half a brain will not go into massive debt, study like crazy and take little or no pay for the first 10 years of their carreer (and I'm talking AFTER collage) to make $100-150K/year. You'd have to be a fool to accept that ROI. And, of course, a fool for a physician is exactly what you'd get.
As you might have guessed, medicine is a complicated business, often quite stressful (what with the constant risk of maiming and killing of patients....and the lawsuits that come regardless), and one that requires a high degree of critical thinking and judgement to be any good at. I'd prefer that there be at least some selectivity in the selection process. But, that's just me.
Regardless, unless you've checked lately, you'd be surprised at what physicians make. There are great regional differences, but many/most primary care docs make $100-125K, with specialists making more depending on the specialty (of course that comes at increased expense, and an even longer period of not making enough to pay down your loans, buy a house, start a 401K etc). Very few specialists in my area (including surgeons) make $500K. I don't even come close in the best of times.
As they say, you get what you pay for. Although, I think Obama is trying to convince everyone that you can also get what you don't pay for. Good luck with that.
Got news for ya...the doctor supply in US has little to do with the number of US graduates. There are ample (a nearly unlimited supply) of foreign medical grads coming to our shores.
You are right about medical schools limiting the number of US grads...there are numerous applicants for every seat in every class of every medical school. As the pay decreases, which it is, you can expect those seats to be filled with students who otherwise would have gone into...say, underwater basketweaving. The sharpest applicants will go elsewhere, where their brainpower and work-ethic will be rewarded more handsomely. Lets face it, anyone with even half a brain will not go into massive debt, study like crazy and take little or no pay for the first 10 years of their carreer (and I'm talking AFTER collage) to make $100-150K/year. You'd have to be a fool to accept that ROI. And, of course, a fool for a physician is exactly what you'd get.
As you might have guessed, medicine is a complicated business, often quite stressful (what with the constant risk of maiming and killing of patients....and the lawsuits that come regardless), and one that requires a high degree of critical thinking and judgement to be any good at. I'd prefer that there be at least some selectivity in the selection process. But, that's just me.
Regardless, unless you've checked lately, you'd be surprised at what physicians make. There are great regional differences, but many/most primary care docs make $100-125K, with specialists making more depending on the specialty (of course that comes at increased expense, and an even longer period of not making enough to pay down your loans, buy a house, start a 401K etc). Very few specialists in my area (including surgeons) make $500K. I don't even come close in the best of times.
As they say, you get what you pay for. Although, I think Obama is trying to convince everyone that you can also get what you don't pay for. Good luck with that.
