Crash at Reno

FYI, Just got this from an old squadron buddy:

This seems to fit.

The following, I believe is a fairly accurate analysis of Leeland's loss of control of the P51 Galloping Ghost. It was written in a blog of comments.

This accident was caused by the failure of the left elevator trim tab. This exact same failure occurred to the P-51 Voodoo in the 1998 Reno race. That aircraft didn't roll inverted, but climbed up past 9,000 feet, where the pilot woke up.
… Voodoo very abruptly pulled up; however, Hannah didn’t radio a distress call. … Steve Hinton flew over to take a look Voodoo. “You OK Bob?” called Hinton. “Yea, this thing just popped big time,” replied Hannah. What Hannah didn’t mention is that the g-load from the quick pull-up had caused him to black out. He finally managed to reach the throttle and reduced Voodoo’s power. At that point Hannah radioed that he “(wasn’t) out of it yet,” but he wasn’t thinking clearly. Later, he declared a mayday and made a perfect landing. … On the ground one could see what cause Voodoo’s problems during the race. The left elevator torque tube failed when the elevator trim fluttered and departed the plane. Fortunately, Bob Hannah’s skill and coolness in the cockpit saved day.
When the trim tab fell off Voodoo, the plane shot upwards and the 10G deceleration force caused Bob Hannah to black out entirely. That’s just as you would expect: the faster you go, the more the plane points upwards on its own, and the more you need to point the nose down to trim the airplane. Thus, at speed and level, the trim tab points up relative to the airflow over the elevator, causing the elevator to be deflected slightly down to maintain level flight.
At over 500 miles per hour, there are enormous airloads on the elevator trim tab to keep the elevator in a position that allows the pilot to maintain control, making damage to the trim tab more likely. Remove the trim tab and the non-trimmed elevator settings immediately deflect up, just like when pulling the stick back hard. That’s what causes the abrupt climb (and corresponding loss of consciousness) when the trim tab falls off.
Hannah regained consciousness at 9,000 feet and, as you can tell from the above, took some time to come back to his senses. It was even the same trim tab. The difference between Voodoo’s close call and Galloping Ghost’s tragedy may have been pure, dumb luck: Voodoo didn’t roll after losing the trim tab while Galloping Ghost did.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean flutter caused the trim tab to dislodge, or that the trim tab was the cause of the accident, or that the trim tab was the only cause of the accident. It’s quite possible something else caused the Galloping Ghost to climb rapidly, and in that process the flutter developed or the trim tab was damaged. As has been reported, some members of the crowd noticed “a strange gurgling engine noise” before Galloping Ghost pitched upwards. Further, as discussed below, it’s possible the trim tab failure could have been avoided, and more could have been done — such as ensuring the pilot was harnessed properly and plotting the race further from the stands — to prevent this tragedy.


Aircraft like the P-51 Galloping Ghost, require a great deal of nose down trim to offset the lift which tends to force the nose up at high speeds (450 mph in this case). This trim setting places a great deal of stress on the trim tab and its hinges and mounting. If the tab should fail, the elevator will return to neutral, inducing an extremely violent pitch-up with zero warning. The associated g forces can incapacitate a pilot....

Notice that in some photos that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. GLOC is an acronym for G induced Loss Of Consciousness.
Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.

I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.

I watched a news channel report on this incident yesterday. It was reported that the owner of the airplane had recently made some rather significant modifications to the aircraft, including shortening the wings, to make the aircraft faster. There was a short interview with the owner shown in which he stated that he knew that the airplane was faster after the mods, but was not sure about how much control was lost.

IMHO, the place to "test" these modifications is NOT at an airshow with spectators. I cannot believe that this highly accomplished pilot would have made that sort of error in judgement, but if he did, well, that would make the incident even more tragic, considering that 9 (?? I think that is the number I heard in the report) people died.

Cheers from Doug!!
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Mike,

That really sounds like what happened.

Is the high speed downward trim the only way to do this?

Besides the obvious pull up problem in Voodo and Galloping Ghost, it seems to me that this trim deflection would also cause unwanted drag in a race plane.


Doug, how have you been!

Doug, these sorts of modifications have been made to P-51 Mustangs many times. Most of the fast war-bird racers have had their wings clipped. Additionally, test flights were flown and it was flown out from Florida.
 
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Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Doug, how have you been!

Been great, Jim! I was on an extended camping trip....attending a bluegrass music festival in Winfield, KS. The rather complicated process for getting a campsite started on Aug 25th and the festival ended at 4 PM last Sunday. That's a LONG time to be sleeping in a tent with 15,000 other campers, all crammed into the space of a county fairgrounds, but for 4 glorious days there are 4 stages, all busy constantly between 9 AM and 12 midnight with professional musicians and national/international instrumental contests (I competed in the International Fingerstyle Guitar Competition in 2008, managed to make the cut to get onstage [only 40 competitors get onstage] but did not get into the top 5).

For a musician, it is nirvana!!!

I really missed getting to read and post on the forum during that time, and when I returned to civilization yesterday I brought up all the new posts. I didn't get through but about 2 threads last night, so I left the website down on the desktop so I could continue to catch up on "new posts" this morning....then, sometime last night, Windows did an automatic download that required an automatic restart. POOF!!! There went all the "new posts".....damnit!!!

Now, back to the topic at hand. My dad flew P51's during WWII and he mentioned that they were a real death machine...the "driveshaft" for the prop ran between his legs and one failed connection (are they U-joints?) was almost always fatal. They were a hard machine to fly, but he was a bit of an adrenaline junkie, anyway, and he said he would not have given up the experience for anything he could think of, it was that enjoyable. He did mention, though, that quite a number of his flying mates did not make it home....it was difficult to get him to talk about his war experiences, but he was willing to talk about how thrilling it was to fly the P51's and how gracious the British were to the Americans during the war.

[Edit---SO glad to hear the plane was tested before it was flown in the airshow...like I said, I could not have believed that any responsible pilot would have failed to test-fly the modified airplane before racing it]

Cheers from Doug!!
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Doug,

Your dad may have been talking of the P-39 or P-63, mostly used in training. Both those were built by Bell Aircraft and had the engine behind the pilot with a driveshaft running through the pilots legs. Additionally they were known as "tricky" aircraft with most of the weight centered in the fusalage.

The P-51 was a "standard" aircraft, with the motor up front ahead of the pilot.
 
I am sort of a fair weather plane aficionado, I thought I knew enough to think that the P51 did not have a driveshaft. Interesting, for sure your dad would know :) Please, if you can give some details on what this 'driveshaft' drove and why. The plane that for sure had a driveshaft was the P39 Airacobra - mid engine fighter.

(Hey, stop that Jim no fair posting while I'm typing)

One thng for sure judging from the picture that Ron posted (I have a higher res version of that picture) it's a fortunate that more people were not lost.
 
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Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Been great, Jim! I was on an extended camping trip....attending a bluegrass music festival in Winfield, KS. The rather complicated process for getting a campsite started on Aug 25th and the festival ended at 4 PM last Sunday. That's a LONG time to be sleeping in a tent with 15,000 other campers, all crammed into the space of a county fairgrounds, but for 4 glorious days there are 4 stages, all busy constantly between 9 AM and 12 midnight with professional musicians and national/international instrumental contests (I competed in the International Fingerstyle Guitar Competition in 2008, managed to make the cut to get onstage [only 40 competitors get onstage] but did not get into the top 5).

For a musician, it is nirvana!!!

I really missed getting to read and post on the forum during that time, and when I returned to civilization yesterday I brought up all the new posts. I didn't get through but about 2 threads last night, so I left the website down on the desktop so I could continue to catch up on "new posts" this morning....then, sometime last night, Windows did an automatic download that required an automatic restart. POOF!!! There went all the "new posts".....damnit!!!

Now, back to the topic at hand. My dad flew P51's during WWII and he mentioned that they were a real death machine...the "driveshaft" for the prop ran between his legs and one failed connection (are they U-joints?) was almost always fatal. They were a hard machine to fly, but he was a bit of an adrenaline junkie, anyway, and he said he would not have given up the experience for anything he could think of, it was that enjoyable. He did mention, though, that quite a number of his flying mates did not make it home....it was difficult to get him to talk about his war experiences, but he was willing to talk about how thrilling it was to fly the P51's and how gracious the British were to the Americans during the war.

[Edit---SO glad to hear the plane was tested before it was flown in the airshow...like I said, I could not have believed that any responsible pilot would have failed to test-fly the modified airplane before racing it]

Cheers from Doug!!


The Mustang does not have a driveshaft between the legs, that is the Bell P39 Airacobra. Most P39s went "lend/lease" to the Soviets (perhaps the start of the Cold War?) They were unioque in having an automotive style entry door rather than a sliding canopy.

The P51 was a drirect prop drive off the Merlin. And many consider the Packard license built Merlins superior to the Rolls-Royce built engines.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
At over 500 miles per hour, there are enormous airloads on the elevator trim tab to keep the elevator in a position that allows the pilot to maintain control, making damage to the trim tab more likely. Remove the trim tab and the non-trimmed elevator settings immediately deflect up, just like when pulling the stick back hard. That’s what causes the abrupt climb (and corresponding loss of consciousness) when the trim tab falls off.

Aircraft like the P-51 Galloping Ghost, require a great deal of nose down trim to offset the lift which tends to force the nose up at high speeds (450 mph in this case). This trim setting places a great deal of stress on the trim tab and its hinges and mounting. If the tab should fail, the elevator will return to neutral, inducing an extremely violent pitch-up with zero warning. The associated g forces can incapacitate a pilot....

Can someone explain why this inherent instability is built into this plane? Was it for low speed stall stability? With as much work as was done to this aircraft, if this was a problem, wouldn't it have been beneficial to shim the horizontal stabilizer (especially for the task-specific role this aircraft has been built for) to neutralize this characteristic?
 
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Is the high speed downward trim the only way to do this?

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You could vary incidence of the entire horizontal stab, which is how it was done on Air Force jets starting with the F-100 after the X-2 accident. Someone else might chime in on how the big commercial jets do it.


As has already been said, in this case the complete loss of the elevator trim tab would have subjected the pilot to extremely high G force when he wasn't expecting it. He could have lost consciousness in a few seconds. My own experience was nothing like as severe, but it's an example of what happens if you're unprepared or, unlike Mr. Leeward, inexperienced.


In the final stage of pilot training the devil on my shoulder whispered to me: "G-suit? G-suit? You don't need no stinking G-suit!" and being a 24 year old over-confident idiot, I took off without one. Right after entering the practice area I blacked out doing a split-s, and no matter how hard I strained, my sight wouldn't come back. I was quickly disoriented and had no clue whether I was right side up and going up or still inverted and pulling for the ground. After counting to five I unloaded the aircraft, strained like hell, and decided if I saw sky when my vision came back I was safe, but if I was looking at dirt, I'd eject. Lucky for my Air Force career it was sky, and I gingerly returned to base with my tail between my legs. In my case, I was expecting the Gs and at least didn't lose consciousness; if it had happened as suddenly as this did, I'd be dead too.
 
Can someone explain why this inherent instability is built into this plane? Was it for low speed stall stability? With as much work as was done to this aircraft, if this was a problem, wouldn't it have been beneficial to shim the horizontal stabilizer (especially for the task-specific role this aircraft has been built for) to neutralize this characteristic?

Terry, the airplane wasn’t ‘unstable’. Airplanes in flight have to be in balance, that balance being between the lift/UP force from the wings (averaged out over the surface and calculated to act through a point called the aerodynamic center/AC – big word, but just a math. convenience) and the weight/down force of the airplane acting through the Center of Gravity (no different from your GT-40 CG). If the lift increases, the airplane climbs and vice versa.
Trim: For the above to work, the lift and weight would have to act through the same point, and it would really be unstable because the whole thing could tilt and wobble every which way. So, they design airplanes (most – there are exceptions) so that the weight/CG is ahead of the AC. With this set up, the system would tilt/rotate nose-down. To counter this nose-down tilting moment, the tail/horizontal stabilizer (behind the AC) generates a tail-down/nose-up force that balances the tilt, providing ‘stable’ balanced flight. This tail force is trim, and the drag associated with producing it is trim drag. Every airplane has trim drag of some sort, whether with canards, deltas, whatever; it’s the price of flying just like tire drag is the price of rolling a car. Designers design the tail to be optimum/minimum drag at the design operational airspeed.
Obviously, the balance is designed around the wing/tail combination. The WWII P-51 was designed to fly around the 350 mph range, I’m thinking (I don’t know what the actual spec was for that new-at-the-time laminar wing). The faster you go, the more lift is created, the more the airplane wants to climb, the greater the nose-down force (hence greater nose-down trim) required to fly straight and level. When they start souping-up the airplanes to go 500 mph, the wings, even clipped, produce lots of lift, so it really takes a lot of nose-down force to keep the nose level.
Trim tab: to help reduce the control force required to ‘hold the nose down’, trim tabs are little bits of surface that move and act on the control surface/elevator like the elevator acts on the airplane, i.e. they use aero force to move the elevator in the desired direction/up or down, thereby reducing the force the pilot must apply. There is no ‘trim tab drag per se, trim drag is the drag associated with the whole system.

Reno: The trim was certainly set to hold the nose level at 500 mph, which means there was a very high nose down trim force required, and a lot of ‘helping’ aero force from the trim tab. Suddenly remove the aero force helping to hold the nose down (when the tab broke) and the result would be for the nose to violently pitch up, creating high instantaneous ‘G’s and the pilot blacking out. That’s the theory in the blog confirmed somewhat by the pictures showing no pilot.

Boy, this is hard to write without getting too technical.

Added tidbits: aircraft stability is proportional to the distance between the CG and the AC. Fighters that have to maneuver quickly tend to have the CG close to the AC (small distance, smaller force required to change pitch) and are far less stable than conventional aircraft. Control Augmentation Systems help the pilot keep the blue side up. The extreme was the F-16, which has a negative static margin, i.e. at subsonic speeds, the CG is a bit behind the AC, and the tail (notice how much smaller it is than an F-15’s, say) holds the nose down, not up. It becomes more stable when above the mach after the Center of Pressure shifts aft. Without a computer, the airplane is unflyable.

Hope this makes sense.
 
John, Fighters have a flying tail/no elevator like you said, to provide pitch forces commensurate with supersonic flight - I think the F-86 introduced this after the early A models with elevators had 'issues' in transonic flight.
Airliners (and I believe some light aircraft these days) have elevators for pitch control, but for trim move the entire stabilizer. Evidently it's more efficient, and they don't need the pich control like a fighter (cheaper, lighter, less maintenance etc,).

No G-suit in a T-38? Naughty naughty...also lucky :eek:) Now if you take a T-38 to 45,000', then push it over straight down in full A/B to see how fast it will go, you get to about 1.4 Mach, the nose/pitot starts to do a little figure 8, you recognize lateral instability right away (not!), go idle speed brakes pull like hell, bottom out at about 18,000ft, wipe the seat, and swear blind you'd never do that again either :eek:)
 
Mike, that was a very clear explanation. I suscribe to your theory of the incident too. We'll see what the NTSB has to say when the investigation is completed. There is also a theory that the seat failed and Jimmy was on his back. Doubtful of this unless the sudden loading caused the seat to fail as well. The tail wheel was extended likely due to the G-forces involved in the sudden pitch-up.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Mike, Thank you for the explanation. I've flown some, spent a lot of years designing and building scratch-built RC models, and understand the self-correcting aspect of this design feature. It just seems that for this very specific application, the trimming would have been modified due to the extreme envelope this aircraft operated within.
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
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I keep hearing the talking heads comment on the photo thast shows the AC pitching downward with no pilot visable in the canopy. They all say "he blacked out and slumped forward" but with a full harness on would he slump enough to not be visable? I have never sat in a P51 cockpit (only "fighter" was the Harrier at Brooklands) but don't understand how he could slump enough to be hidden?
 
If the pilot had slop in his belts so he can lean forward to work the instrument panel or see in a turn, then at 10 G he can be moved. I think you can see his helmet forward in a couple of the photographs going around (the overhead shots). Look at an enlargement of the center picture of post #10 on ths thread. Notice his seating position here- it looks forward tilted.

Ghost.jpg


a4284746-252-Mustang%20Crash%202.jpg
 
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It would be a big sheet metal mod, but what they should do is hinge the horizontal stab so pitch can be trimmed via a screwjack instead of a tab.
 
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Disclaimer: this is not 'my' theory, guys. I just forwarded something a friend sent me, although it does make sense. Like it was said before re. the Air France crash etc., there are always lots of theories and conjecture by 'experts' and the media shortly after an accident, based on no facts, and generally wrong. The NTSB will hopefully come up with a finding soon...

I'm going to fly a P-51 next week (Crazy Horse - Lake Kissimmee). so then I too will become an "expert" (not!!!) and undoubtedly have lots of new opinions on how a Mustang flies...like a P-51D has a lot in common with the racing machine.

Molleur, where do you live in Florida?
 
If the pilot had slop in his belts so he can lean forward to work the instrument panel or see in a turn, then at 10 G he can be moved. I think you can see his helmet forward in a couple of the photographs going around (the overhead shots). Look at an enlargement of the center picture of post #10 on ths thread. Notice his seating position here- it looks forward tilted.

Ghost.jpg


a4284746-252-Mustang%20Crash%202.jpg

In the first picture, the pilot's head is behind the canopy frame aft of the windscreen and also aft of the black painted bit on the forward top fuselage. In the second picture, his head is definitely forward of the same canopy frame and black painted area.

Chris
 
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