Affordable Care Act a HIT!!!! 7 million goal achieved; 8 million now signed up!

Keith

Moderator
You need an tax funded NHS system like we have here whereby every man woman or child is entitled to health care. There is nothing to stop a system being developed that can account for a higher level of care for those in a position to pay for it which could be minus the flat rate costs the government system would have paid. That would work.

Bob

Edit, nice graph Jim.

A well considered response Bob. I hope you do not expect an answer or that even anyone, save ourselves, will even read it. :)

This thread subject is to be filed alongside Gun Control and classified as completely pointless circular diatribtic (is that a word?) dogma along party lines.

What fascinates me is that several doctors have contributed to this thread but their views have not seemingly been given any credence.

Wouldn't happen here, much... :shifty:
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Jim, it would have been faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar cheaper had 'the gubmunt' just GIVEN 3 million bux - TAX FREE - each to every man woman and child legally residing in the country and let 'em all pay for their OWN darned medical from then on.

Larry,

Lets see the US population is approximately 317,923,997 now you think that if we gave each of them $3,000,000 that would be cheaper than the Affordable HealthCare Plan?...................realy?


317,923,997 x $3,000,000= $95,377,000,+++........my calculator won't even go that high.

Faaaaaaaaaar cheaper?

Larry, did you learn math from Reagan?

Additionally without the requirement to purchase insurance what makes you think they would spend the money on health care?
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
This thread subject is to be filed alongside Gun Control and classified as completely pointless circular diatribtic (is that a word?) dogma along party lines.(quote]

Keith,

For six years we have had post after post screaming about the horrors of the Affordable Health Care Plan and up until this point it was as you say "dogma along party lines" and completely pointless circular diatribtic."

But now that the Plan is starting to take effect, now that we actually have real data, real numbers, real facts to discuss, it has left the realm of "dogma" and entered an era where actual facts can be discused.

Quite frankly I am looking forward discussing actual facts over the next few years.
 
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Keith

Moderator
Well thank you for reading that bit Jim. I'm still in the dark as to what a viable alternative there might have been, or is "the other side" saying that people should just be thrown to the wolves?

PS I do not believe that "affordable health care for all" is such a bad concept. :)
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
317,923,997 x $3,000,000= $95,377,000,+++........my calculator won't even go that high.

Oh, for the love of Pete, Jim - I was simply making a point in a facetious fashion. I was dead serious about the lump sum 'grant' idea though...


Additionally without the requirement to purchase insurance what makes you think they would spend the money on health care?

That would be THEIR problem. Besides, God knows 'the gubmunt' could slap rules and regs on the money to thwart that...like dictating withdrawls could O-N-L-Y be made in the form of direct deposits into the account of a Doc, hospital, or the like - AND invoices reflecting the exact amount of any withdrawl would have to be submitted with ones income tax return every year to verify the expense(s). 'Jail time and a huge fine many times the withdrawl amount if the invoice can't be produced.

It could be done.


(To 'he-knows-who-he-is': Thanks for the heads up, but henceforth you needn't bother! I am gunna take that week off!)
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Wow Doug, you're all for nationalized medical care but are firmly against immigration reform = amnesty. You probably will be calling yourself the "R" word pretty soon.

Well, I would not go that far yet, Mark...but as I keep telling guys like Larry L., who keep referring to "my side"...I don't HAVE a side. My opinions are all over the spectrum!

Cheers!!

Doug
 
So Al's solution is for the Govenment to cover those who can not afford or will not pay for coverage.

As an example, in Al's plan, someone who can afford health care but desides not to purchase it.......

Al thinks the Government should pick up the bill for his by-pass surgery?

Does anyone else think that?

You suffer from the same problem I do, we don't fully read before replying. I said "If they are not willing to pay for it, then let them deal with the consequences, that's their choice, not the governments." I said nothing about bypass surgery. My plan was the sale of insurance across state lines to make it more competitive and Tort reform. The individual states could take care of those not able to afford insurance like they do now.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
The solution was the sale of insurance across state lines to make it more competitive and Tort reform, but lawyers aren't about to let that happen. The government never needed to be involved.
Posted by AL

But Al,

You say "The government never needed to be involved".

Who would pass tort reform, who would allow insurance across state lines?

You yourself said that Tort reform would never pass as most lawmakers are lawyers.

We need to deal with what is possible.


The part about making health care more competitive will not change the fact that most of the currently un-insured can not afford even "competitive" health care or choose not to purchase it.

Al I'll ask again, how would you handle a person who can't afford or chooses not to purchase health care and then has a catastrophic health emergency?
 
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Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I agree that we need a tax funded NHS system. That is what the public option would have been, and the insurance companies persuaded (if that's the right word) Obama to give it up, since they didn't want the competition. So the ACA essentially delivered the entire population into the hands of a private industry- some of it nonprofit, to be sure, but still greedy as hell- and made the population into a captive group.

As to the premiums going down, part of the sales job on this law was that some peoples' premiums would go down. As I said before, I have not met a SINGLE individual whose premiums have gone down. Not one. If you know someone in that small group, great. I don't. And I think the idea that anyone's premiums would go down was part of the group of lies that we were told about this law.

I've been a physician for over thirty years and since I work in emergency departments, we treat everyone, regardless of whether they pay us or not- and where I work, very few pay us anything. If this law results in more rational use of the medical care system, then fine, but I remain unconvinced.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
How many more things like this are hidden in the thousands of pages of this act?

hipaa obamacare over this privacy issue - Bing Videos

About 90% of my job is reviewing electronic medical records. HIPPA deals primarily with voluntary disclosure of PHI (Protected Health Information) to third parties. Situations like the one in the link you posted as well as accidental entries into other Electronic Medical Records is simply a matter of human error, easy to fix, I run I to them all the time...and impossible IMHO to blame on the implementation of the ACA.

There was some sort of law or other provision a few years ago that either encouraged or required written/paper medical records to be converted to an electronic format...a friend was hired by a dentist and her only job was to scan paper documents into a digital memory device. Maybe that is the real culprit?

Probably not...IIRC it was during GEE-Dub's reign of terror.

Cheers!!

Doug
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Jimbo,

I want you to know how deeply impressed i am and how much i admire what you do. I thank God that there are people like you. I don't know how you do it. Really, that must be the the toughest most stressful occupation ever, to do it every day.........I can't imagine.

Thank you very much!
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Jimbo,

I want you to know how deeply impressed i am and how much i admire what you do. I thank God that there are people like you. I don't know how you do it. Really, that must be the the toughest most stressful occupation ever, to do it every day.........I can't imagine.

Thank you very much!

+1, Jim!!

I was a certified EMT on a volunteer EMS so I saw a lot of the stuff ER docs have to deal with as a first responder...the ER can be very well choreographed chaos and the docs still manage to work magic...can't say enough good about what they do!!!

Cheers for Jimbo!!!

Doug
 

Steve

Supporter
I agree that we need a tax funded NHS system. That is what the public option would have been, and the insurance companies persuaded (if that's the right word) Obama to give it up, since they didn't want the competition. So the ACA essentially delivered the entire population into the hands of a private industry- some of it nonprofit, to be sure, but still greedy as hell- and made the population into a captive group.

As to the premiums going down, part of the sales job on this law was that some peoples' premiums would go down. As I said before, I have not met a SINGLE individual whose premiums have gone down. Not one. If you know someone in that small group, great. I don't. And I think the idea that anyone's premiums would go down was part of the group of lies that we were told about this law.

I've been a physician for over thirty years and since I work in emergency departments, we treat everyone, regardless of whether they pay us or not- and where I work, very few pay us anything. If this law results in more rational use of the medical care system, then fine, but I remain unconvinced.


I too have been a physician for some time. As a hand/upper extremity surgeon I see the trauma for followup once Jim's patched them up in the ER.

The irony of the ACA is the use of the word "Affordable". There is little in the law that reigns in costs. The runaway costs is the primary reason why medicare and medicaid are failing. This is in spite of steady decreases in physician reimbursements over the last 3 decades. Instead of properly addressing costs, the ACA took the easy way out and expanded coverage. Expanding coverage without successfully addressing runaway costs merely accelerates the debt problem in the US. It's no wonder Jim knows of no one who has seen there premiums decrease. I too know of no one who's seen premiums decrease.

To answer Keith's question: the primary problem we face in controlling costs and having a functional health system is the lack of personal accountability and personal restraint. Patients want expensive care and overutilize resources because they feel they're not personally paying for it (my insurance company covers it, my employer pays for it, I have medicaid). This is why December is my busiest month for surgery and I routinely work to midnight many days in the month: "I need to get all my elective tests, surgery etc done now doc before my new deductible kicks in". Expand that attitude to 317 million and you get the picture. Americans won't be satisfied with the waiting lists and rationing in Europe. They want free reign with no restrictions.

The answer? Well, no one really knows, but accelerating the problem certainly doesn't solve much.

My philosophy?

1)Keep a private system but only allow insurance companies to play if they offer a very basic plan at cost (no profit). This keeps costs down.

2)Let individuals get they're own plan and pay for it with pretax $. The most conscientious consumers of healthcare I encounter are small business owners who choose their own plans, deal with the consequences and compromises, and also deal with providing plans for their employees. Get rid of employer sponsered plans but allow the employer to provide a stipend (tax free) as a benefit to employees, who in turn pick a plan that's right for them. My practice employs 165 people. We have one plan. There's no way that plan works for everyone. We have single mothers, older single people with chronic disease, married people with large families. Let the individual pick their plan for themselves/their family. Personal responsibility with personal consequences (something our population seems all too wiling to abdicate to the govt who in turn botches it)

3)If you don't get a plan, no one has to treat you unless you pay cash. Does anyone really think the ACA penalty is going to make young people buy into the system? What a joke. The consequences of going "naked" aren't significant enough.

4)No matter where you move, you can take your plan with you. It's portable and can't be cancelled.

5)Insurance companies can make their profit on the ala carte additions onto a basic plan. Patients can choose the ala carte features that are important to them. The states decide via a commission of appointees (from the state medical societies, hospitals and insurance industry) what constitutes a basic plan and what "cost" is on a basic plan. All plans have some basic deductible/copay that is alway due at the time of service. People need a deterrent to overutilization. My biggest overutilizers are medicaid patients: it's essentially free healthcare so they come in frequently with every little ache and pain and want head-to-toe MRI's (wasteful abuse of resources).

6)Govt (either state or federal or a combo) can subsidize plans for indigent patients on a sliding scale based on income/wealth.

OK, pretty pie in the sky and full of holes (more details would put you to sleep, if you're not by now) but at least it's not 2000 pages of total BS like the ACA.

Interesting factoids:

1) Did you know that with the ACA it is illegal for doctors to own hospitals. This in spite of the fact that the CBO found that MD owned specialty hospitals offer higher quality care at lower costs with higher patient satisfaction rates and they don't cherry pick the best payors.

2) Did you know that a health insurance company can own hospitals, and doctors! Ever meet a health plan that took a hippocratic oath?

3) Did you know that employed physicians whose compensation is based on patient satisfaction surveys prescribe a dramatically higher rate of narcotics?

4) Did you know that outpatient surgery centers are paid 40-60% as much as hospitals for the same procedure? In spite of this they have to meet more stringent federal (CMS) and state regulations, have higher patient satisfaction rates and comparable or better outcomes on average? Still they are often legislated out of business in some states. Ever wonder why?
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Steve, I would like to say thank you! Your post was exactly the sort of exchange I was hoping for when I posted this thread. It was factual, based on personal experience, and not dripping with venom because of political hatred for "...the other side". I have always felt that most of those who were against the ACA were against it b/c they were angry that a president for whom they did not vote "forced it down their throats"...that always diminishes my interest in what they have to say. Your post was a breath of fresh air, bringing hope for exchange of information and ideas without the angst.

Thank you, and CHEERS to you!!!

Doug
 
Paying privately for health care is an option for those in work but how would the premiums be calculated in ones latter years, with the inevitable reliance on the system along with an inability to pay the premiums . I can see the whole scheme imploding.

Bob
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Doug, you must be thinking of another thread, this one seems pretty civil.

You are right about this thread being pretty civil, Al. What I meant by angst was the tendency of certain individuals to cry in their beer on the threads about the ACA because of certain dissatisfactions about the POTUS...can't keep our plan as promised, lies, lies, lies...they can't get over their anger at the person they want to blame and just discuss the issues...that is what I meant. Take a look at the post about which I was complimentary...none of that, just well stated comments on topic without all the useless blaming and ya-ya about the POTUS.

Cheers!

Doug
 
Doug, while I'm not happy with the law, it's not a dislike for Obama, it's the arrogance of writing changes into the law, which the constitutionality of is in question, whenever he feels like it to make it appear that the law is working. If young adults between 18 and 35 don't signup in the prescribed numbers, the ACA will shit the bed and a bailout will occur that WE will pay for. At this point they have not signed up.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Al, my point has always been that we already pay for medical care for those who refuse to carry insurance. I do not dispute your claim that a bailout may be necessary, but given the amount that the county in which I live pays for indigent medical care already, I can't imagine that with 8 million newly insured the federal bailout would come anywhere near the cumulative amount all the counties have to pay.

Taxes are taxes, whether they are county property taxes or State/Federal income taxes...any progress toward reducing those tax burdens by requiring health insurance is a good thing, IMHO.

As for writing new provisions into a law after it was passed by congress...I would like to hear more about that. I thought once a law was passed the only entity authorized to modify that law was the judicial branches of our government. Tell us more, please.

Cheers!!!

Doug
 
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