70% of the country is the opposition, don't think they are being paid!
B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
70% of the country is the opposition, don't think they are being paid!
The general populace might not be, but there are a number of small groups that are well organized. They are getting funded.
Ian
Couple of comments:
- The two women are two sisters and friends of mine. The younger one was so embarassed as being an American that she said she was Canadian when she visited Scotland some years ago.
Catch these two on torture:
{ 2009 05 04 }
US Torture Statistics
This is a list of statistics relating to people being tortured at Guantanamo, Afghanistan, Iraq, and other sites as of May 2009.
Date started: October 2001, after 9/11, after invasion of Afghanistan
total detainees ever in custody: at least 775
detainees released without charge: 420
current number of detainees: 245
predicted to be put on trial: 60 to 80
predicted to be released: 170
attempted suicides: hundreds
successful suicides: at least 4
Number of cases of abuse: at least 330
Number of detainees involved in abuse case: at least 460
Number of US personnel involved in abuse cases: at least 600
Number of US personnel convicted of abuse: 54
Number of US personnel serving prison time for abuse: 40
Number of detainees who have died while in US custody: at least 100
Number of detainees deaths ruled a homicide: at least 30
Think Progress » Ex-State Dept. official: Hundreds of detainees died in U.S. custody, at least 25 murdered.
Number of tapes made by CIA showing torture of detainees: at least 92
Number of tapes destroyed by CIA: At least 92
Number of hours of video footage of CIA torture: hundreds of hours
American lives saved from torture-induced confessions: Zero
Number of detainees convicted of terrorist activities as of 21 May 2009: three
By the Numbers | Human Rights Watch
Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bagram torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/washington/03web-intel.html?_r=1
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_analysis
A list of documents obtained by the ACLU using the Freedom of Information Act are listed here:
American Civil Liberties Union, Accountability for Torture, Restore the Rule of Law, Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, Waterboard
A list of autopsy reports of prisoners in US custody is here:
http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/
Senate report on torture of prisoners in US custody:
12-11-2008 - Levin, McCain Release Executive Summary and Conclusions of Report on Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody : Senator Carl Levin: News Release
Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison in 2004. In his report, he stated “The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture.”
General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes | McClatchy
In 2008, Taguba wrote a preface a Physicians for Human Rights report accusing the Bush White House of war crimes.
Dan Froomkin - General Accuses WH of War Crimes - washingtonpost.com
Dasht-i-Leili_massacre: between 250 and 3,000 (depending on sources) Taliban prisoners were shot and/or suffocated to death in metal truck containers, while being transferred by U.S. and Northern Alliance soldiers from Kunduz to Sheberghan prison in Afghanistan.
Dasht-i-Leili massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Obama administration officials said that there were no grounds for a war crimes investigation around the Dasht-i-Leili_massacre, not because they said no crime occurred, but because they claim the prisoners were not killed by American forces. Rather, they claim the prisoners were killed by Afghan forces who were working with American military and the CIA.
Dostum, was the Northern Alliance general who is accused of overseeing the atrocities. A former U.S. ambassador for war crimes issues, Pierre Prosper, told the Times that the Bush administration was reluctant to investigate the deaths, even though Dostum was on the payroll of the CIA and his soldiers worked with U.S. special forces in 2001.
Dostum was suspended from his military post last year on suspicion of threatening a political rival, but Afghan President Hamid Karzai recently rehired him.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090711/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghan_war_crimes
RE: Torture tapes. “The existence and destruction of the tapes was first revealed on Thursday by CIA Director Michael Hayden in a letter to CIA employees. … Hayden made the improbable claim that the tapes were destroyed to protect CIA interrogators from retaliation by Al Qaeda. He wrote in his letter that the CIA halted the practice of taping interrogations in 2002, after only a few recordings had been made.”
CIA destroyed torture tapes
From Russia Today:
Published 13 August, 2010, 02:18
Edited 14 August, 2010, 11:09
U.S. President Obama is accused of continuing the Bush-era torture policies, in a new report by the American Civil Liberties Union.
The report evaluates the White House's record in terms of transparency and accountability for the last 18 months since Obama took office.
Michael Macleod-Ball, ACLU Chief legislative and policy counsel, says the president has been inconsistent in delivering on his election campaign pledges.
“President Obama came into office with promise of great hope and in fact in his early days he took very important steps to try to turn back the tide of the aggregation of the executive branch authority of the Bush administration,” Macleod-Ball acknowledged.
“The executive order banning torture was an important step in the right direction, but at the same time, subsequently the administration took no steps to try to hold those in the Bush administration accountable for the actions that generated the torture in the first place. And so what we see throughout this administration are series of positive steps but they are not quite achieving the result that was promised during the election.”
- The two women are two sisters and friends of mine. The younger one was so embarassed as being an American that she said she was Canadian when she visited Scotland some years ago.
Catch these two on torture:
{ 2009 05 04 }
US Torture Statistics
This is a list of statistics relating to people being tortured at Guantanamo, Afghanistan, Iraq, and other sites as of May 2009.
Date started: October 2001, after 9/11, after invasion of Afghanistan
total detainees ever in custody: at least 775
detainees released without charge: 420
current number of detainees: 245
predicted to be put on trial: 60 to 80
predicted to be released: 170
attempted suicides: hundreds
successful suicides: at least 4
Number of cases of abuse: at least 330
Number of detainees involved in abuse case: at least 460
Number of US personnel involved in abuse cases: at least 600
Number of US personnel convicted of abuse: 54
Number of US personnel serving prison time for abuse: 40
Number of detainees who have died while in US custody: at least 100
Number of detainees deaths ruled a homicide: at least 30
Think Progress » Ex-State Dept. official: Hundreds of detainees died in U.S. custody, at least 25 murdered.
Number of tapes made by CIA showing torture of detainees: at least 92
Number of tapes destroyed by CIA: At least 92
Number of hours of video footage of CIA torture: hundreds of hours
American lives saved from torture-induced confessions: Zero
Number of detainees convicted of terrorist activities as of 21 May 2009: three
By the Numbers | Human Rights Watch
Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bagram torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/washington/03web-intel.html?_r=1
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_analysis
A list of documents obtained by the ACLU using the Freedom of Information Act are listed here:
American Civil Liberties Union, Accountability for Torture, Restore the Rule of Law, Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, Waterboard
A list of autopsy reports of prisoners in US custody is here:
http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/
Senate report on torture of prisoners in US custody:
12-11-2008 - Levin, McCain Release Executive Summary and Conclusions of Report on Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody : Senator Carl Levin: News Release
Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison in 2004. In his report, he stated “The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture.”
General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes | McClatchy
In 2008, Taguba wrote a preface a Physicians for Human Rights report accusing the Bush White House of war crimes.
Dan Froomkin - General Accuses WH of War Crimes - washingtonpost.com
Dasht-i-Leili_massacre: between 250 and 3,000 (depending on sources) Taliban prisoners were shot and/or suffocated to death in metal truck containers, while being transferred by U.S. and Northern Alliance soldiers from Kunduz to Sheberghan prison in Afghanistan.
Dasht-i-Leili massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Obama administration officials said that there were no grounds for a war crimes investigation around the Dasht-i-Leili_massacre, not because they said no crime occurred, but because they claim the prisoners were not killed by American forces. Rather, they claim the prisoners were killed by Afghan forces who were working with American military and the CIA.
Dostum, was the Northern Alliance general who is accused of overseeing the atrocities. A former U.S. ambassador for war crimes issues, Pierre Prosper, told the Times that the Bush administration was reluctant to investigate the deaths, even though Dostum was on the payroll of the CIA and his soldiers worked with U.S. special forces in 2001.
Dostum was suspended from his military post last year on suspicion of threatening a political rival, but Afghan President Hamid Karzai recently rehired him.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090711/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghan_war_crimes
RE: Torture tapes. “The existence and destruction of the tapes was first revealed on Thursday by CIA Director Michael Hayden in a letter to CIA employees. … Hayden made the improbable claim that the tapes were destroyed to protect CIA interrogators from retaliation by Al Qaeda. He wrote in his letter that the CIA halted the practice of taping interrogations in 2002, after only a few recordings had been made.”
CIA destroyed torture tapes
From Russia Today:
Published 13 August, 2010, 02:18
Edited 14 August, 2010, 11:09
U.S. President Obama is accused of continuing the Bush-era torture policies, in a new report by the American Civil Liberties Union.
The report evaluates the White House's record in terms of transparency and accountability for the last 18 months since Obama took office.
Michael Macleod-Ball, ACLU Chief legislative and policy counsel, says the president has been inconsistent in delivering on his election campaign pledges.
“President Obama came into office with promise of great hope and in fact in his early days he took very important steps to try to turn back the tide of the aggregation of the executive branch authority of the Bush administration,” Macleod-Ball acknowledged.
“The executive order banning torture was an important step in the right direction, but at the same time, subsequently the administration took no steps to try to hold those in the Bush administration accountable for the actions that generated the torture in the first place. And so what we see throughout this administration are series of positive steps but they are not quite achieving the result that was promised during the election.”
Note these two are not far apart, and differ with what was said in the NYT article posted earlier.
Here is O'Reilly's Talking Point memo from last night:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4314871/whats-really-behind-ground-zero-mosque-controversy
Here's what a former islamic militant says about the mosque:
Tawfik Hamid: Ground Zero Mosque Islamic Victory Symbol
Wednesday, 18 Aug 2010 01:47 PM Article Font Size
By: Jim Meyers
Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”
He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”
Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.
Today Hamid is a senior fellow and chair for the Study of Islamic Radicalism at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. He is the author of "Inside Jihad: Understanding and Confronting Radical Islam," and a regular Newsmax contributor.
President Barack Obama said over the weekend that the Muslims have the right to build the mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, although he later stated he did not advocate the construction. But New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said he does advocate construction.
In an exclusive interview with Newsmax.TV, Hamid criticized Bloomberg’s advocacy of the mosque.
“I believe he did this without doing the most basic step, which is to make sure that the leaders of the mosque are truly moderates,” Hamid says.
“I don’t have any specific negative things against them except for the issue of Hamas. They support Hamas. This is a very serious issue. It means they support killing innocent children in the name of Islam. This is what Hamas does. He should have made sure first that this group [that wants to build the mosque] is moderate.
“He should have asked them, if they are truly moderate, shall they tell us, and tell the media and tell the world, their position on the violent Shariah teachings, such as killing the apostate and stoning women to death and declaring wars to spread their religion.
“How could he consider them moderate without making sure that they stand clearly and unambiguously against the violent ethics of Shariah?”
As for why he personally opposes construction of the mosque, Hamid says: “Many Islamists believe that this is a sign of victory for Islam, a triumph over America. It’s a symbol of victory for Islam over the values of America.”
Questions have arisen over where the funding for the $100 million mosque project is coming from. Hamid says: “Mostly from Muslims around the world — most likely personal donations from people who want to see Islam victorious in the West.”
Asked if the mosque project will further polarize Muslims and non-Muslims, Hamid says: “Absolutely. It will create friction between civilizations, and I’m afraid it can be the spark that will start the big fire of a war between civilizations, because I can see people are getting angry.
“And it shows a lot of insensitivity from the Muslim side. Doing something legal does not mean that you are sensitive to others.”
Hamid was also asked why Muslims aren’t speaking out more against Islamic radicals.
He questioned “how many Muslims are true moderates here.
“Some people pretend they are moderates but they are not moderates. And there are some people who do not have the theological knowledge to discredit the beliefs of the radicals.
“It’s tribal mentality. We haven’t seen demonstrations in the Muslim world against bin-Laden, for example. So it’s sort of a tribal mentality that makes them unable to criticize their fellow Muslim brothers.”
I found this on Media Matters and think it may be appropriate:
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008160028
Catch this one from the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/joe-scarborough-takes-on-_n_686234.html
Here a BBC post on Muslim Spain, remember the NY project is called the Cordoba Projet:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml
Lastly this is interesting, and the writer is Muslim:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/sec5.htm
I still think sensitivity on the part of the Muslim community makes most sense to the victims. Probably the country should declare the area around the WTC a battle ground.
Here is O'Reilly's Talking Point memo from last night:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4314871/whats-really-behind-ground-zero-mosque-controversy
Here's what a former islamic militant says about the mosque:
Tawfik Hamid: Ground Zero Mosque Islamic Victory Symbol
Wednesday, 18 Aug 2010 01:47 PM Article Font Size
By: Jim Meyers
Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”
He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”
Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.
Today Hamid is a senior fellow and chair for the Study of Islamic Radicalism at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. He is the author of "Inside Jihad: Understanding and Confronting Radical Islam," and a regular Newsmax contributor.
President Barack Obama said over the weekend that the Muslims have the right to build the mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, although he later stated he did not advocate the construction. But New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said he does advocate construction.
In an exclusive interview with Newsmax.TV, Hamid criticized Bloomberg’s advocacy of the mosque.
“I believe he did this without doing the most basic step, which is to make sure that the leaders of the mosque are truly moderates,” Hamid says.
“I don’t have any specific negative things against them except for the issue of Hamas. They support Hamas. This is a very serious issue. It means they support killing innocent children in the name of Islam. This is what Hamas does. He should have made sure first that this group [that wants to build the mosque] is moderate.
“He should have asked them, if they are truly moderate, shall they tell us, and tell the media and tell the world, their position on the violent Shariah teachings, such as killing the apostate and stoning women to death and declaring wars to spread their religion.
“How could he consider them moderate without making sure that they stand clearly and unambiguously against the violent ethics of Shariah?”
As for why he personally opposes construction of the mosque, Hamid says: “Many Islamists believe that this is a sign of victory for Islam, a triumph over America. It’s a symbol of victory for Islam over the values of America.”
Questions have arisen over where the funding for the $100 million mosque project is coming from. Hamid says: “Mostly from Muslims around the world — most likely personal donations from people who want to see Islam victorious in the West.”
Asked if the mosque project will further polarize Muslims and non-Muslims, Hamid says: “Absolutely. It will create friction between civilizations, and I’m afraid it can be the spark that will start the big fire of a war between civilizations, because I can see people are getting angry.
“And it shows a lot of insensitivity from the Muslim side. Doing something legal does not mean that you are sensitive to others.”
Hamid was also asked why Muslims aren’t speaking out more against Islamic radicals.
He questioned “how many Muslims are true moderates here.
“Some people pretend they are moderates but they are not moderates. And there are some people who do not have the theological knowledge to discredit the beliefs of the radicals.
“It’s tribal mentality. We haven’t seen demonstrations in the Muslim world against bin-Laden, for example. So it’s sort of a tribal mentality that makes them unable to criticize their fellow Muslim brothers.”
I found this on Media Matters and think it may be appropriate:
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008160028
Catch this one from the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/joe-scarborough-takes-on-_n_686234.html
Here a BBC post on Muslim Spain, remember the NY project is called the Cordoba Projet:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml
Lastly this is interesting, and the writer is Muslim:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/sec5.htm
I still think sensitivity on the part of the Muslim community makes most sense to the victims. Probably the country should declare the area around the WTC a battle ground.
Last edited:
freedom of religion...sharia law? that is against humanity or against some people/inhumane...so they could ban that to save those people...
a lot of us are not against some people but against how they do or act or desrespect woman or the western...
adapt to the system do good be good...
religions are mostly used for wars or to stay in power, thats not the way to go.
a lot of us are not against some people but against how they do or act or desrespect woman or the western...
adapt to the system do good be good...
religions are mostly used for wars or to stay in power, thats not the way to go.
We would all feel a bit more comfortable if the Cordoba Mosque project made a statement like this guy (an Imam who declares a Jihad against terrorism):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qBkZ4Qr8Fc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qBkZ4Qr8Fc
Mislead? I got my info from this "informed" thread mate :laugh:
Forget the GZ moniker, I was asking a genuine (non rhetorical) question here.
Shall I ask it again? (Scuse the caps, but perhaps the question needed more emphasis)
IS A MOSQUE A COMMUNITY CENTRE AND VICE VERSA IN THE MUSLIM WORLD? IF SO, THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO TO NON MUSLIM EARS WHICH MAY AFFECT PEOPLES OPINION OF PROJECTS SUCH AS THE ONE THAT AIMS TO BUILD ONE OF THEY IN NEW YORK SOMEWHERE FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.
How's that?
Keith,
See this:
The Mosque as a Community Center (Part Two) - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h
One last point, a mosque is currently located several blocks from the proposed Cordoba center. And remember St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church that was across the street from the WTC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nicholas_Greek_Orthodox_Church
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/
See this:
The Mosque as a Community Center (Part Two) - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h
One last point, a mosque is currently located several blocks from the proposed Cordoba center. And remember St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church that was across the street from the WTC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nicholas_Greek_Orthodox_Church
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/
Thanks chaps - jut what I was looking for. A concept that is hard to argue against given the range of services that are provided by such an entity (and I'm saying that with a straight face. I know what you're all thinking)
Shame our so-called (Christian) religious orders cannot enhance their services to their communities at a similar level instead of going into a schism every time a choir boy walks by. :worried:
Jim - I don't know diddly squat where it is. Last time I was there in 1978 I couldn't even find it. Could see it from everywhere, just couldn't find it, and every time I pulled up at a light, wound the window down to talk to an adjacent motorist for advice, they ducked, gunned the motor and ran the red light burning rubber. I thought that was quite strange.
Shame our so-called (Christian) religious orders cannot enhance their services to their communities at a similar level instead of going into a schism every time a choir boy walks by. :worried:
Jim - I don't know diddly squat where it is. Last time I was there in 1978 I couldn't even find it. Could see it from everywhere, just couldn't find it, and every time I pulled up at a light, wound the window down to talk to an adjacent motorist for advice, they ducked, gunned the motor and ran the red light burning rubber. I thought that was quite strange.
Actually the Christians actually are pretty good. Its unfortunate that that a few bad apples who were not properly thrown out when the time was right early on in their career gave the church such bad press. We hear about the Catholic Church, but we don't hear about the other religions or those people who have no beliefs, and the incidents therein. I think you are aware of how some muslim girls were treated by their parents (as it was exposed on BBC over the years).
Agree mate - it's just the bad ones we hear about thanks to the media :veryangry:
As for the so-called 'honour killings' just can't get my head around that in the 21st Century. :worried:
they still live in the 7st or so Century with beliefs
and some countries let believes rule their people...sad.
that have to change me thinks.
If they were consistent in their 7th Century beliefs ...
I remember just after 9/11 there was an Arabic CNN correspondent who reported on attending various "Anti US/Anti Western Civilization/Anti Satan" rallies in the middle east. What he found was that inside these rallies, everyone was yelling for the death of the US and Western Civilization, but outside, they were all discussing how to get their children into the best universities in the US and UK so they can get the best education possible ...
Ian
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Religious fanatics of all ilks never worry about being hypocrites
This says it all, including why the US in our political correctness is being snowed.
Pat Condell on Ground Zero mosque: "Is it possible to be astonished, but not surprised?" - Jihad Watch
Pat Condell on Ground Zero mosque: "Is it possible to be astonished, but not surprised?" - Jihad Watch
You are SO right, Pete! The Baptist church pews are just full of drunks!
Cheers from Doug!
My house must be a Baptist Church then.
