Since this basicly comes down to saving weight, why not make an aluminum body the modern way. I inderstand that aluminum can be heated to almost melting and then under a vaccum be formed to the shape of the body. Can it not be made very thin and be rigid and super lite? Joe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carbon fibre tub??
- Thread starter Gregg
- Start date
Concerning the weight issue. I can say first hand (as I have an FE, a 351W, and a set of Longacre race scales) that similarly equipped FE and 351W weigh about the same. See my updated site ( www.2gmotorsports.com ) for configurations of each engine. The 351W with cast iron block and aluminum top end without carb and alternator weighed 467 lbs, and the FE with cast iron block, aluminum top end complete weighed 506 lbs. I think a lot of the heavy FE comments come from all cast iron FE's. An all aluminum FE (Shelby block) could be made for ~425 lbs. An all aluminum Dart block 351W could be made for ~380-390 lbs. As I have said before I would love to see those of you who have scales weigh your equipment before it goes in the car and take pictures. We could them have a "data base" of info to make decisions.
Those looking for originality may want to choose the FE. I guess it is up to them.
Those looking for originality may want to choose the FE. I guess it is up to them.
By the way I weighed my GT40 drive train just before I stuck it in and it included the following:
1.) The above mentioned 351W
2.) Flywheel (Tilton steel NASCAR)
3.) clutch (Tilton 7.25" twin rally)
4.) Tilton hyd throwout
5.) CAV belhousing
6.) RBT 5speed.
7.) Did NOT include carb, alt, A/C comp, and brackets.
Total weight was 652 lbs.
1.) The above mentioned 351W
2.) Flywheel (Tilton steel NASCAR)
3.) clutch (Tilton 7.25" twin rally)
4.) Tilton hyd throwout
5.) CAV belhousing
6.) RBT 5speed.
7.) Did NOT include carb, alt, A/C comp, and brackets.
Total weight was 652 lbs.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Gregg, I WISH it were going to be here. Kerry and company are not done; they just got the roof on and there is still some work to do. Although I think they are moving along briskly, it will be a few weeks yet, because it has to get painted in the UK as well.
Also, the monocoque is going to Ohio, because that is where Safir is and the rest of the car. Now, if you plan to be in that area, let me know and I will be happy to tell you how to get in touch with those guys to go have a look at it. That goes for everyone else as well, although I don't want to drown them in visitors.
Also, the monocoque is going to Ohio, because that is where Safir is and the rest of the car. Now, if you plan to be in that area, let me know and I will be happy to tell you how to get in touch with those guys to go have a look at it. That goes for everyone else as well, although I don't want to drown them in visitors.
Howard Jones
Supporter
I KNOW that a GTD can be built at under 2100 pounds. How? alum. block 302 with alum. everything else. Thats nearly 200 pounds lighter than a iron head/block/waterpump motor.
Very thin race type bodywork. There is 50-75 pounds to be saved in the rear body alone. Light weight modern rear uprights, the originals from GTD look like they weight 50 pound each and are off a M1A1, along with new alum front uprights. No AC, Alum radiator, small battery, single fuel tank, pump etc. One light fiberglass framed foam seat and leave out all the interior carpet along with the fiberglass tub to be replaced with thin alum pannels. Speaking of pannels, many of the pannels on the car are not really needed except for trying to make it look like a mono. How about the front windshield? Replace with lexan. Then you don't need a wiper do you, 20 pounds of so all in. As I look over my car I can see that there are a lot of little pieces that could be replaced with alum pieces and a very light car could be built but it really wouldn't be of much use as a street car.
Couple this light weight special with 500hp and a G50/50 and you have a real SUPERCAR. More power? how about 575hp, completely doable with a 302 and $$$, and 2100 pounds. Thats 3.6 pounds per horse! The new GT if it weights in at 3200 or so would be about 6.4 with 500 hp. Think about that one guys. And at half the cost! Think slicks and real good brakes and it would be much much faster.
Read the new Car and Driver. The GT is already just about the quickest car for sale except for maybe a enzo and a M1.
I you consider the above I have to wonder why it would be necessary to use a big block and a carbon mono. Wow how about a carbon mono alum, Quafe 6 speed,427ci 600 hp winsor on big race goodyears !!
I guess I agree with just about everybody else. Just build what your heart says is right for you. It's all good if its a 40.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Very thin race type bodywork. There is 50-75 pounds to be saved in the rear body alone. Light weight modern rear uprights, the originals from GTD look like they weight 50 pound each and are off a M1A1, along with new alum front uprights. No AC, Alum radiator, small battery, single fuel tank, pump etc. One light fiberglass framed foam seat and leave out all the interior carpet along with the fiberglass tub to be replaced with thin alum pannels. Speaking of pannels, many of the pannels on the car are not really needed except for trying to make it look like a mono. How about the front windshield? Replace with lexan. Then you don't need a wiper do you, 20 pounds of so all in. As I look over my car I can see that there are a lot of little pieces that could be replaced with alum pieces and a very light car could be built but it really wouldn't be of much use as a street car.
Couple this light weight special with 500hp and a G50/50 and you have a real SUPERCAR. More power? how about 575hp, completely doable with a 302 and $$$, and 2100 pounds. Thats 3.6 pounds per horse! The new GT if it weights in at 3200 or so would be about 6.4 with 500 hp. Think about that one guys. And at half the cost! Think slicks and real good brakes and it would be much much faster.
Read the new Car and Driver. The GT is already just about the quickest car for sale except for maybe a enzo and a M1.
I you consider the above I have to wonder why it would be necessary to use a big block and a carbon mono. Wow how about a carbon mono alum, Quafe 6 speed,427ci 600 hp winsor on big race goodyears !!
I guess I agree with just about everybody else. Just build what your heart says is right for you. It's all good if its a 40.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Hi Gregg,
As a Design Engineer with current modern F1 experience i'd be interested to discuss this project in depth with you. There are lots of things about it that i've been thinking of after reading the many threads on here about such projects, and seeing the Tornado effort.
The idea of using tubular steel sections for the suspension mounts etc, is to some degree defeating the object, and there are some very efficient/elegant techniques/solutions that would avoid the need to go that route.
I've hundreds of pictures and drawings of car parts made in carbon that show the degree to which carbon can be used to enormous effect, far beyond the few percent weight savings that have been discussed thus far. I've been involved in a long running project to "carbon/titanium-ise" a Porsche 964 and the weight reduction has been huge. You can catch some of the details and see pictures of many of the parts that i designed for the project at Cartridge Limited
One thing i would point out is that F1 teams are called teams for a reason, McLaren employs 50+ designers plus R&D engineers, materials specialists etc etc and everything that is designed and made is to one degree or other a team effort. Obviously F1 parts are designed to the nth degree, but the team of people need one another during the design process because such complex parts, and the complex procedure of manufacturing them requires the combined experience and knowledge of these people. One person in isolation is unlikely to have all the answers to a big project of this nature, finding the guy with access to the "team" is going to be the key to the degree of success you have with the project.
Feel free to contact me and chat more as it's a very interesting idea.
D.
As a Design Engineer with current modern F1 experience i'd be interested to discuss this project in depth with you. There are lots of things about it that i've been thinking of after reading the many threads on here about such projects, and seeing the Tornado effort.
The idea of using tubular steel sections for the suspension mounts etc, is to some degree defeating the object, and there are some very efficient/elegant techniques/solutions that would avoid the need to go that route.
I've hundreds of pictures and drawings of car parts made in carbon that show the degree to which carbon can be used to enormous effect, far beyond the few percent weight savings that have been discussed thus far. I've been involved in a long running project to "carbon/titanium-ise" a Porsche 964 and the weight reduction has been huge. You can catch some of the details and see pictures of many of the parts that i designed for the project at Cartridge Limited
One thing i would point out is that F1 teams are called teams for a reason, McLaren employs 50+ designers plus R&D engineers, materials specialists etc etc and everything that is designed and made is to one degree or other a team effort. Obviously F1 parts are designed to the nth degree, but the team of people need one another during the design process because such complex parts, and the complex procedure of manufacturing them requires the combined experience and knowledge of these people. One person in isolation is unlikely to have all the answers to a big project of this nature, finding the guy with access to the "team" is going to be the key to the degree of success you have with the project.
Feel free to contact me and chat more as it's a very interesting idea.
D.
Ron McCall
Supporter
You guys realize that this thread is almost 7 yrs old?
Fran Hall RCR
GT40s Sponsor
My old business partner.(custom hipo motorcycles) works for McLaren on the road and race car programmes....we chat quite regularly about designs for chassis and body packages...1986 March Indy car chassis techniques are certainly not F1....
Scott C has used its 'Carbon Fiber' title as a lead in to highlight the Tornado CF version, guess he & Andy will have broad enough shoulders to bear the weight of the-kudo's-slings-or arrows that might follow
..............Scott C has used its 'Carbon Fiber' title as a lead in to highlight the Tornado CF version, guess he & Andy will have broad enough shoulders to bear the weight of the-kudo's-slings-or arrows that might follow
Agree Jac. Tornado chassis is constructed using carbon fibre showing major weight savings. F1 uses carbon fibre - chassis designed by F1 engineer. That's what's been stated and that's what it is. I don't see any misrepresentation here at all as Chris has inferred.
You want a modern CF F1 style GT40 chassis? I guess Ambramovich might be able to afford one and one just for a spare
So why the comments re: '80's F1 technology anyway. Puzzled.
Replica making is a small 'cottage' type industry with high risks investing in new tech. So, we have an affordable 'CF' mono. Brilliant... we should all be pleased.
By the way Chris, you don't HAVE to buy one unless the law has been changed :laugh:
By the way Chris, you don't HAVE to buy one unless the law has been changed :laugh:[/QUOTE]
Chris doesn't have to buy one. He's "currently designing his own mid engine scratch built sports car". How is the design coming along Chris?
Chris doesn't have to buy one. He's "currently designing his own mid engine scratch built sports car". How is the design coming along Chris?
By the way Chris, you don't HAVE to buy one unless the law has been changed :laugh:
Chris doesn't have to buy one. He's "currently designing his own mid engine scratch built sports car". How is the design coming along Chris?
It's been on hold since the birth of both my little girls, and the property we moved onto which requires constant care, and the vineyard I'm putting in...
Geez, someone claims F1 technology which implies A LOT, then someone points out that it's old technology and people start crying.:thumbsdown: I happen to be someone who can't stand the typical marketing hype and decided to just make a comment. Guys - F1 technology is not just using carbon fiber - CF is used practically everywhere these days. F1 technology is HOW and WHERE the CF is used and the PROCESS by which they use it. Do you think the resin they're using is readily available to you? I bet you the top teams are using nanotube enhanced epoxies. Yeah, if you call around you may find some, but it's few and far between right now. Not everyone is successful in dispersing the nanotubes in the resin - it's a closely guarded secret. F1 technology is so far beyond flat panels it's not even worth discussion. The suspension arms aren't metal anymore. Not all the "joints" on the suspension arms are even joints at all. It's a-whole-nother world.
But, if it makes you fell all giddy inside to buy a kit car that someone says is built with F1 technology, then by all means...
You didn't hear this here but ....
Former F1 engineer unveils new city car - CNN.com
:lipsrsealed:
Gotta be the coolest thing since Paddle Shifters on the Smart Car!!!!
:shocked:
Tell you what Randy - that thing is really interesting!
But there again, Mr Murray did also design some of the most successful F1 cars ever..
Chris, why don't you allow them (TSC) the bragging rights to be the first 'affordable' CF chassis for GT40? For crying out loud, there have been many 'kits' that never made it past "give me your money up front and I'll never ever deliver" When I first spoke to Ken Atwell a thousand years ago (remember him?) what he produced was nothing short of a major miracle in kit form, and cars are sporting his bodies even today.
In a limited production, volatile and extremely difficult market, I think these guys (Tornado) actually deserve a big pat on the back.
I don't even know them (and I do understand that as far as many Americans are concerned, we must SURELY know Cousin Albert in Hackney) but I think it's a really important step forward in the (GT40) kit market, no, it's an important step in ANY low volume production specialist 'component car' market.
Something has got right up your nose Chris and I hope it's not Carbon Fibres. That stuff can be a right bitch to extract..
PS Strangely enough and somewhat ironically, I can now afford (after 40 years) a replica GT40. I would not want a turnkey because that would not accurately reflect my passion for creating one of these icons and I do believe that the journey is as equally exciting as the arrival. Unfortunately, I am not now in good enough health so it's not possible, but if it were - I would not hesitate to go for that 'bogus' F1 tech Tornado chassis. We English are shit at almost everything including football, but we can still innovate and construct on a small scale that leads the world.
But there again, Mr Murray did also design some of the most successful F1 cars ever..
Chris, why don't you allow them (TSC) the bragging rights to be the first 'affordable' CF chassis for GT40? For crying out loud, there have been many 'kits' that never made it past "give me your money up front and I'll never ever deliver" When I first spoke to Ken Atwell a thousand years ago (remember him?) what he produced was nothing short of a major miracle in kit form, and cars are sporting his bodies even today.
In a limited production, volatile and extremely difficult market, I think these guys (Tornado) actually deserve a big pat on the back.
I don't even know them (and I do understand that as far as many Americans are concerned, we must SURELY know Cousin Albert in Hackney) but I think it's a really important step forward in the (GT40) kit market, no, it's an important step in ANY low volume production specialist 'component car' market.
Something has got right up your nose Chris and I hope it's not Carbon Fibres. That stuff can be a right bitch to extract..
PS Strangely enough and somewhat ironically, I can now afford (after 40 years) a replica GT40. I would not want a turnkey because that would not accurately reflect my passion for creating one of these icons and I do believe that the journey is as equally exciting as the arrival. Unfortunately, I am not now in good enough health so it's not possible, but if it were - I would not hesitate to go for that 'bogus' F1 tech Tornado chassis. We English are shit at almost everything including football, but we can still innovate and construct on a small scale that leads the world.
I sort of agree with Chris in regards to the technology used phrase and after the Steel mono shamble...... But if they do have a CF chassis forsale, Then good on them for having a go. I think that this CF chassis / body could be the next big thing in GT40s.
My questions are.
1- Why did they not change out those 'Locost' looking front suspension arms to something more suitable?
2- Why would you not incorporate the spider into the chassis for a true mono look ( I'm so sick of people calling tubs mono's) If they had fitted the spider as part of the chassis then that would smash your competition to pieces look.
3- Does anyone actually have a kit? Scott have you got one?
Good luck with it, get them out there and built. Any heading to Australia? I agree with Keith, the Poms are the best in the world when it comes to kitcars and fibre panel quality IMHO.
My questions are.
1- Why did they not change out those 'Locost' looking front suspension arms to something more suitable?
2- Why would you not incorporate the spider into the chassis for a true mono look ( I'm so sick of people calling tubs mono's) If they had fitted the spider as part of the chassis then that would smash your competition to pieces look.
3- Does anyone actually have a kit? Scott have you got one?
Good luck with it, get them out there and built. Any heading to Australia? I agree with Keith, the Poms are the best in the world when it comes to kitcars and fibre panel quality IMHO.
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Is that called damming us with faint praise mate?
Sorry, I have no idea about the 'steel mono shambles' or even why tubs aren't monos, because I thought it a kind of generic term after maybe 40 years of 'monos'.
I am not really willing to continue the debate because I know nothing of this company or the product really, except I have seen Paul W's TSC which is stunning.
I just chimed in because I thought it was an exciting step in the 'kit car' market and was in truth a bit perplexed when it seemed to be inferred that the description was, in some way, 'misrepresented' but I guess I failed to spot the fatal flaw in the marketing and description.
Like, it's obviously made of egg crates with Lego suspension.
What do I know?
Love and peace guys..
Go for it - I'll get my popcorn...:lurker:
Sorry, I have no idea about the 'steel mono shambles' or even why tubs aren't monos, because I thought it a kind of generic term after maybe 40 years of 'monos'.
I am not really willing to continue the debate because I know nothing of this company or the product really, except I have seen Paul W's TSC which is stunning.
I just chimed in because I thought it was an exciting step in the 'kit car' market and was in truth a bit perplexed when it seemed to be inferred that the description was, in some way, 'misrepresented' but I guess I failed to spot the fatal flaw in the marketing and description.
Like, it's obviously made of egg crates with Lego suspension.
What do I know?
Love and peace guys..
Go for it - I'll get my popcorn...:lurker:
Please don't get me wrong - it's great that they offer a CF chassis - I'm just talking about claiming that it is built with F1 technology - it's just a bit far fetched. I thought of making a central tub in my chassis out of CF like they did, but I would never tell someone it is made with F1 technology because it wouldn't be F1 technology.
