Cleveland or Windsor

George

CURRENTLY BANNED
Thanks Doug.

A FE427 is the 'hemi' Big Block?

Would that even fit in the GT40 if modified, or scrap that thought?

Also, wanting a light car to add speed by keeping HP numbers down, is not going the Big block in that sense counter productive and hence why though I LOVE "BB", the Small Block stroked to 427ci (BB cubes with SB weight) makes more sense?

If that is the case, I am just left with W/C if I have understood the FE thing meaning big-block, no?

So what in the Small Block world of Ford is the equivalent FE ownership concept, or there isnt one?

I always like to be different, but I dont want to be counter-productive either.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks Doug.

A FE427 is the 'hemi' Big Block?

Would that even fit in the GT40 if modified, or scrap that thought?

If that is the case, I am just left with W/C if I have understood the FE thing meaning big-block, no?

So what in the Small Block world of Ford is the equivalent FE ownership concept, or there isnt one?

Ford made only a few of the SOHC 427's....most were sold to racers, but they can still be sourced on the used market these days (and some NOS might well still be available, but at a stratospheric price).

I'd suspect that since the MKII was built to handle the FE engine series, there might well be a chance that a SOHC model would fit, but the chains used to rotate the OHC's are quite long and the heads quite large...not to mention the header system that would be necessary. I have to believe that if it were likely, somebody would have already done so.

The W/C issue is complicated by the fact that there are two different sized Windsor engines, the "5.0" (302 Cubic Inch Displacement) and the 351CID version. The deck height (the distance from the crankshaft centerline to the machined surface onto which the cylinder heads are mounted) of the 302CID is 8.2", the deck height of the 351CID is, IIRC, 9.2" (although there were some made with a 9.5" deck height--check out Dean Lampe's RCR40 build thread for a good look at one).

Here's a Wikipedia article on the Windsor engine line, a lot to be learned here:

Ford Windsor engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for a small block equivalent of the Hemi, well, no hemispherical combustion chambers there, but a few come to mind:

First and foremost would be the 271HP version of the 289 engine, called the "K-Code" or "Hi-po" 289. It was a fantastic engine, would rev freely and quite high, and had great street manners. Caroll Shelby made a great deal of money by upping the output to 300+ horsepower and putting them in a Mustang...remember the Shelby 350 Mustangs?

Next would probably be the Boss 302 engine....original versions of the Boss 302 Mustang sell for huge figures in the auctions.

Ford did make a "Boss 351" that was quite the runner at high RPM's. It had even larger valves/ports than the regular 351 4-V and was factory fitted with 4-bolt mains, solid lifter camshaft and adjustable valvetrain. It was available for only about 3 years before Ford discontinued it due to increasingly stringent pollution guidelines. It was a good motor, but the huge "sewer-sized" ports left something to be desired when low-RPM torque was needed....hang on at the higher RPM's, though!!

Nothing there with the visual impact of your Mopar Hemi or Ford's SOHC, though.

If it were me advising you, I'd say go with the 8.2" deck Windsor for two reasons...tuners can use aftermarket blocks and build them to incredible HP numbers (easily in line with the numbers you mentioned), and it is historically correct.

...however, having said that, I'm here to say that if I could afford a 40, it would have a 302-based Clevor in it....I'm a real fan of the broad torque curve those canted valve heads offer!

Cheers!

Doug
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Nothing there with the visual impact of your Mopar Hemi or Ford's SOHC, though.

Sure there is, don't forget the Boss 429. Lots of new parts make it possible to build one of these reasonably economically from 385 series blocks. Check here:

http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.co...-custom-built-boss-nine-and-p-51-engines.html

Boss_429.jpg
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
GEEZ, how could I forget the Boss 429??????

Thanks, Ron!

Cheers!

Doug
 

George

CURRENTLY BANNED
Thanks for the feedback and the read. I actually have a few emails from John Kaase about building me a motor. They prefer the 400+ ci range for flat torque curve. He actually suggested a Dart Block given what I had 'in mind' for the car to do.

Not the cheapest build, $25-$35,000 (depending on the parts used) for the entire motor EFI 8 stack (the straight ones like on Daves Cleveland?), alloy block and heads and top line parts to safely run at 7000rpm with a large power curve and probably 550hp.

I hope this isnt breaching anything, but parts mentioned would be:

- P38- Cylinder heads (as they are a very light casting) with a .625 deck surface.
- Bryant or Winberg light weight crankshaft
- Dart Alloy Block
- Light weight Carillo steel rods
- Dry Sump
- e.f.i stack injection, harness, ecu etc, all ready to go

I asked about Titanium rods but they said the steel ones will last much longer and are nearly the same weight.

So based on rarity I guess the 'cleveland' is in a way a more 'special' so called motor in the small block range?

429 Boss, 427 FE etc are all big block engines correct?
 
For that sort of money I'll build you a Coyote that produces the flatest torque curve you have ever seen.
Just sold 2 V8 supercar engines that produce over 600hp for 25k each. Sorry, none left
 
George, with all the discussion on 351s have you considered buy a new BOSS 302 or 351 casting for $1850 and go from there with new metal and better engineering.?
 
Ford's equivalent to the Dodge Hemi is the FE based 427SOHC...stands for "Single Overhead Cam". Not surprisingly, IIRC the combustion chamber was hemispherical.......

Ford racing NASCAR engine that competed against the Hemi was the 427 tunnel port and later the Boss 429. The ERA did built a few Cobras with the 427 cammer. Cammers were used for drag racing
 

Kirby Schrader

They're mostly silver
Lifetime Supporter
he said the selection of pistons available under +.030" is limited.

Interesting comment...

I had .015" over Weisco pistons in a 351C for years and now have .020" over pistons in the same engine. (long story... don't want to go there.)
It was easy to obtain the pistons.

I have another 351C I've just put into my Pantera and it uses .015" over JE pistons. Again, pretty easy and quick to obtain.

OK, I guess two manufacturers do make it 'limited'?
:laugh:

FWIW,
Kirby
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Is the Boss 429 engine a hemi-head type? I couldn't find any photos of the inside of the head and combustion chambers. Not that I want to build one, I'm just curious as to what's in there. Evidently it was built to compete with MoPar Hemis, is why I ask.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Is the Boss 429 engine a hemi-head type? I couldn't find any photos of the inside of the head and combustion chambers. Not that I want to build one, I'm just curious as to what's in there. Evidently it was built to compete with MoPar Hemis, is why I ask.

Yes. It is the more comparable motor to the Mopar Hemi. The SOHC 427 is in a league on its own and outside the Mopar Hemi class.

complete.jpg


completetop.jpg
 
I love my 408 stroker Cleveland in my Pantera (well, currently sitting on the ground *behind* my Pantera, but that's another story...)

While parts aren't as plentiful as they are for Windsors, how plentiful do they really have to be? You can buy 45 different kinds of aluminum cylinder heads for a Windsor. But how many will you actually buy? Answer: One. :laugh:

So, there are only a half-a-dozen or so aluminum cylinder head options for the Cleveland--that's still quite enough. Different price points, different designs for different missions, but they cover the broad spectrum and you can easily find and buy something that will make you happy.

Cleveland blocks suffer dramatically from core shift during the casting process, leading to dangerously thin cylinder walls. When I had my 408 built, its foundation was a used, never-bored block which had a score in one cylinder that thankfully would disappear with a .030 overbore. However, sonic testing revealed that another cylinder which looked just fine was dangerously thin in one area, and the cylinder wall would be virtually transparent with a .030 overbore, so that hole got sleeved.

While the off-the-shelf overbore pistons are normally .030 over (and some lunatics will buy .060 pistons--the rings of adjacent pistons will practically high-five each other as they go up and down I think!), it's possible to get pistons made in .010, .015 etc. The smart move with a 351C (particularly if you're overseas where 351C blocks don't exactly grow on trees) is to measure the block and determine the smallest possible overbore you can get away with safely, and then get pistons to suit, regardless of cost. In the long run it's cheaper than just stampeding straight for a .030 overbore, and then having to replace the block when the engine wears out in the future.

Having said all that, I would never put a Cleveland into a GT40. The physical characteristics of the Windsor lend themselves to GT40 use better than the Cleveland, plus there are practical issues (headers etc. are readily available for one, not the other). At the end of the day, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between a 500 hp, 500 ft/lb Cleveland versus a similar Windsor, from behind the wheel.

Honestly, if it was me (and one day it will be, I promise!) I'd build a 331-inch stroker on a new 302 block for a GT40. I've got just that nestled between the frame rails of my '66 Shelby GT350 clone, and will be taking my first drive in the car shortly....
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Awesome cylinder head photos, Ron. It seems an interesting mix of a hemi chamber with staggered valves, kind of like a BB CM engine.....

The 427 SOHC motor must have had amazing flow to make all that power- the valve train losses would be a little higher, but you could rev more....
 
For some good 351C info check out the pantera forums and Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum (the cleveland forums). Also google George Pence. I've been doing a lot of research before I rebuild the C in my 69 mustang. George and others have helped clear up the myths surrounding the 351C and give a lot of good advice for building dependable engines regardless of the power level. There's a lot of mis-information out there.
 
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