Engines HP

[Keith]

I haven't got a horse in the race now, but I've had a few. I cannot adequately describe the driving joy gained from taking a car and wringing it's neck to get the last ounce of performance, whether it be a 500hp mid engined sports car or a front engined tin top, and you cannot do that with excess hp.

I've owned cars with excess hp on the street and it was fun for a while but to be honest, it became boring. There's a culture thing going on here, and I believe Mericans will always plump for big numbers because someone whispered to their mama while they were being conceived "there's no substitute for inches." Have I got that right?

For a street '40 I would be happy with 375-425 at the wheels and for the track 500 rwhp tops, remembering that you are in the twisty bits far more than you are on the straight bits where hp counts.

I would then "add lightness".

I would just add that with mid engined cars they can snap oversteer on the throttle quite quickly and given the lack of protection etc....

 

[Robert May Eng.]

I haven't got a horse in the race now, but I've had a few. I cannot adequately describe the driving joy gained from taking a car and wringing it's neck to get the last ounce of performance, whether it be a 500hp mid engined sports car or a front engined tin top, and you cannot do that with excess hp.

I've owned cars with excess hp on the street and it was fun for a while but to be honest, it became boring. There's a culture thing going on here, and I believe Mericans will always plump for big numbers because someone whispered to their mama while they were being conceived "there's no substitute for inches." Have I got that right?

For a street '40 I would be happy with 375-425 at the wheels and for the track 500 rwhp tops, remembering that you are in the twisty bits far more than you are on the straight bits where hp counts.

I would then "add lightness".

I would just add that with mid engined cars they can snap oversteer on the throttle quite quickly and given the lack of protection etc....

Thats the one Keef and here`s a demo of a pretty sorted Camaro having grief keeping up with some 4pot n/a kent engined lightweights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnp9GEnmBM0

 

[Glenn B.]

As varied opinions are being offered, mine is that horsepower numbers are irrelevant.

If any car intimidates you, park it and find a well-respected racing school and attend a 5-7 day training program suitable to qualify you for a competition license. It's the best investment you can make to truly enjoy the experience of driving a vintage high-performance car, whether replica or real. Competing needn't be the ultimate goal. The development of your car handling skills are the most important for your safety, and the safety of your passengers and others on the road. You can kill yourself just as easily in a 60's vintage race car with 400hp as you can with 600hp if you don't have the skills to drive it. These cars have no computer "nannies", airbags, ABS, or computer-designed impact absorption zones to save your ass. I would venture to say that most accidents in vintage high-performance cars occur either entering or exiting corners, not when accelerating in a straight line. You can enter a corner too fast, abruptly cut the throttle, panic-lock the brakes and induce a irrecoverable spin with 400hp just as easily as 600+.

A very long time ago I was taught a simple 3-Step process to safely drive a high-performance car:

1. Insert Key

2. Engage Brain containing appropriate knowledge and experience.

3. Start the engine.

I'm 62 and haven't wrecked one yet. My GT 40 has 607hp and 605 ft. lbs of torque...and is very manageable.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

A picture says a thousand words so a vid must be worth a million . Watch this thing going down the road and then calculate how many of the 1000hp are of any use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsBOUJ5MQrI

I just feel that building HP is expensive , if its not useable its just a waste of time.

Bob

 

[Ron R.]

Robert,

In all fairness, neither a Camero nor a Ford Escort are in the same class as a GT40 chassis-wise. A bit of a straw man, don't you think?

But I do agree with Glenn. If you can't handle your car, get another one or get some training.

5 horsepower in the wrong hands can be dangerous.

Interestingly, the OP hasn't been back since one minute after his original post. Hit and run, so to speak. Wonder when the spam will commence?

 

[Howard Jones]

I had my 40 at a track day that included many types of cars. During one session I found myself behind a Miata that had all the appropriate race car stuff on it. I just could not get by him without really stretching the brake zone past what would have been safe. I had convinced myself by the end of the session that that thing had to be a V8 Miata.

NOT! So I went over to talk to the guy and found the current class champion of one of the spec Miata series working on his race car. He had been using the open track day as a test and tune session.

Well, me being the guy to never pass up a way to learn something, I asked him for some advice. He told me that he was watching me in his mirrors and asked what tires I had on the car. The bottom line was:

"put slicks on that thing and it will be faster that it would by adding 200 HP, I was making all the time you got back down the straights by running the center of the corners at least 10 mph faster than you were. It's all about the tires"

We went out and I followed him again so that I could learn his line better. Once he had taught me a couple of things I was able to get by him because I could run the centers of the corners faster and that translated to higher top speed at the end of the straight.

A couple of corners later he spun it in my mirrors trying to keep up.

The difference in our cars was I had three times the power, wider wheels, about the same weight, TIRES, and he was a better driver.

The moral of this story is learn how to drive (easy controlled entry and put the power back on as early as possible) and run slicks on track.

More HP is way down the list on what to do to go faster.

 

[Ron R.]

Howard,

Of course you're right...but a good driver with slicks and more horsepower will be even faster, all things being equal. However, I think that this thread has drifted even further from the original question, ie, how much is too much power for a SPF GT40. Not that the OP may care, he's MIA since posting.

As I said, when I posted it. I certainly don't think 500-600 bhp is too much. I knew I would take flack for saying it, and so I did. I don't care, I stand by my statement. I've driven a number of cars with 500+ horsepower, and feel perfectly comfortable in my GT. Would I say the same about a 500 horsepower '76 VW Rabbit...probably not.

BTW, Didn't the MK2 in sprint trim make something like 485 hp? Essentially the same chassis as the SPF, right?

Everyone has to decide what they're comfortable with, but I consider 500 bhp to be perfectly reasonable in this car.

 

[Howard Jones]

Oh, I didn't say huge power numbers are not FUN. They just are not necessary for going fast (lap times).

If I was spending my money on a motor for a small mid engine car I would be looking at 400HP in a street car and about 500 in a track only car. Gee, I thought I just said that 500hp wasn't necessary. It's not, but it is much easier to power by somebody and then just set a brisk pace in the corners after that than drive your balls off in the corners to keep ahead of a far more powerful car.

But 600 or more HP in a GT40? I don't think its necessary, but that's just my free opinion, isn't it.

Lastly remember what it cost for a 600 ft/lb capable gearbox......... A hell of a lot more than the motor. Then there's the rest of the drivetrain, clutch, axles, CV joints.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Baby!

 

[Darrin]

I would heed that advice as well. For a street car better to keep it around 300-350HP max.

Track car, not more than 425 will get you around while other similar higher HP cars will be wasting time trying to get all that power to the ground.

Bah humbug!



Mine will be right at 500-525 at the crank, spin to in excess of 8,000 RPM and I believe my 305/35/18 Nitto NT01 with Wavetrac differential will handle it just fine thank you.

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

We have a guy here in Sydney with a 40 with twin turbos and putting out in excess of 1000Hp.
His car is always off the road with broken clutch, trans etc.

What use is the extra Hp?????

I would rather drive mine and enjoy it rather than shelling out for repairs and downtime just to have the bragging rights.

Dimi

 

[Robert May Eng.]

If you littered the car with aero to generate some downforce you may get to use a few of those hp`s north of 500, you could then use the excess to overcome the drag that will help get back up to top speed that existed pre big HP hike.

Bob

 

[Gus Richmond]

I'm hearing you Dimi, are you referring to the black mkII with the 01E?

 

[Jim Cowden]

The thread has drifted a bit but in a good way.

I track my car a fair bit, it has about 320hp at the fly.
Ultra ultra reliable, very rare that I work on it at the track, that I like.
At the track yes I would like a little more, it is a mind set with these cars, because they look fast you want to be the fastest.

I get guys come up to me at the track and say I AM DOING THE SAME TIME AS YOU.
I ask what year model is your car , if they say 2010 I say 1966 it only took you 44 years to catch up.

They are 1966 technology real or replica, they are fun.
You enjoy them more when you stop worrying about how fast everyone else is going.

Jim

 

[Ron R.]

You guys are funny.

Sometime I'll have to start a thread about what everyone's daily driver is, and who spends time at the racetrack.

Why, because I suspect many of you are old men.

Frankly, among my car culture friends, 500 bhp is really nothing. Street or track.

But, as long as you're happy, I'm happy.

 

[Darrin]

All sound advice from a given perspective. One question though. Was Shelby wrong to put that 427 in the car? According to some here 485 HP is just WAY too much for that car and especially with that 1960s tire technology. It shouldn't have been controllable...but it was.

Now, maybe 1000 HP twin turbo setups are going to the extreme, but I bet if you asked Shelby if he would rather have 1000 or 300 horsepower (all else...like reliability being even) he would choose the former.

Just do what makes you happy but understand the repercussions (dangers if you will) of going to the extreme.

 

[Howard Jones]

Damn!...............That's it...................I'm OLD.........

 

[Mike]

Old people smell funny

 

[Kirby Schrader]

I am in the process or ordering a SPF Mk I and the question is, is the chassis capable of taking 650 HP since originally designed for 300+ HP with the 289 Ford? I know later they went to 302, 305 and 351 engines that got up to 400+ HP but that is not 650 HP.

VERY late to the game here, but hell... I'll add my opinion.

My SPF MkII has a 427 Windsor with EFI and it dyno'd at 544 HP.
I am not happy with it (long story), but it goes. I think it could stand more HP.
I'd like some more HP.

When you see your speedometer hit just under 180 on the straight and I realized I have to slow down, I thought... well, maybe I don't need more.

I have a 2013 GT500 that I drive to work every day. 662HP, says Ford.
You have to/must hang on to it diligently if you ever push the throttle to the floor.
I may be spoiled with the GT40 and the Pantera, but the Shelby will bite you big time if you don't watch it.
I also don't like the way it handles and am looking forward to the new GT350.

The GT40 will break the tires loose in at least the first two gears, but you can have one hand on the steering wheel and feel absolutely confident that eventually it will hook up and you're good to go. No drama.

ZF's....
A friend vintage races a Pantera with 700+ HP. A ZF is what the Pantera came with and to stay vintage, that's what we have to run.

He's been running his car for over 15 years and is very competitive.
Yes, he's broke an output shaft and an input shaft, but let's keep things in perspective... He runs slicks and races the crap out of the car.

I, too, have decided to join him and so far, with a similar engine, have not had a problem. It's early, but I'd like to think I'm aware of the ZF's limitations. Time will tell.

If you want to drag race your GT40 with gooey tires, be prepared to start breaking stuff. Well, ZF's, at least.

As for ultimate HP, see the threads about the twin turbo 427 GT40.
Lots of discussion. I know the guy and have had the car sitting in my driveway. Never drove it, though.

It dyno'd at 1200HP or so. He told me when he got on the throttle in 2nd gear, the passenger door would open. IMHO, the GT40 chassis was never meant to take that type of beating.

Bottom line.... What do you want to do with the HP/car?
Bragging rights?
Top speed?
Quarter mile?
Have fun?
Road racing?

FWIW,
Kirby

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

VERY late to the game here, but hell... I'll add my opinion.

My SPF MkII has a 427 Windsor with EFI and it dyno'd at 544 HP.
I am not happy with it (long story), but it goes. I think it could stand more HP.
I'd like some more HP.

When you see your speedometer hit just under 180 on the straight and I realized I have to slow down, I thought... well, maybe I don't need more.

I have a 2013 GT500 that I drive to work every day. 662HP, says Ford.
You have to/must hang on to it diligently if you ever push the throttle to the floor.
I may be spoiled with the GT40 and the Pantera, but the Shelby will bite you big time if you don't watch it.
I also don't like the way it handles and am looking forward to the new GT350.

The GT40 will break the tires loose in at least the first two gears, but you can have one hand on the steering wheel and feel absolutely confident that eventually it will hook up and you're good to go. No drama.

ZF's....
A friend vintage races a Pantera with 700+ HP. A ZF is what the Pantera came with and to stay vintage, that's what we have to run.

He's been running his car for over 15 years and is very competitive.
Yes, he's broke an output shaft and an input shaft, but let's keep things in perspective... He runs slicks and races the crap out of the car.

I, too, have decided to join him and so far, with a similar engine, have not had a problem. It's early, but I'd like to think I'm aware of the ZF's limitations. Time will tell.

If you want to drag race your GT40 with gooey tires, be prepared to start breaking stuff. Well, ZF's, at least.

As for ultimate HP, see the threads about the twin turbo 427 GT40.
Lots of discussion. I know the guy and have had the car sitting in my driveway. Never drove it, though.

It dyno'd at 1200HP or so. He told me when he got on the throttle in 2nd gear, the passenger door would open. IMHO, the GT40 chassis was never meant to take that type of beating.

Bottom line.... What do you want to do with the HP/car?
Bragging rights?
Top speed?
Quarter mile?
Have fun?
Road racing?

FWIW,
Kirby

Hi Kirby and everyone else
Let's see
Bragging rights.
When you get older and more mature this doesn't mean a bag of shit.
Top speed.
Not legal and limited by the aerodynamics of the car not unlimited HP.
Quarter mile.
Most of our driving is done over hundreds and thousands of miles.
Have fun.
This is probably the most important one as we build and drive for enjoyment.
Road racing.
Not legal in most places and most likely to get you or someone else killed.

The above is just my humble opinion and is not intended to anger anyone.

Dimi.

 

[Kirby Schrader]

Road racing.
Not legal in most places and most likely to get you or someone else killed.
Dimi.

Whoa.... poor choice of words. Sorry. My apologies.

Road racing... I meant legal racing as in going to a track and either joining a 'track event' where it's a training type thing or vintage racing.

What I think you interpreted it as is 'street racing'.
Not condoned here, personally.

FWIW,
Kirby