I have also been around too many car b ques and have a Safecraft system in the passenger footwell of my 40, one nozzle in the passenger compartment, 2 in the engine bay. I can e mail pictures but am never able to attach them to this site. Cost was around $400, worth every penny.
Fire supression systems....who has em??
- Thread starter VintageVenom
- Start date
Ron Earp
Admin
Hi David,
It isn't the site, it might be your procedure or the picture size. The picture must be less in size than the stated maximum on the screen when you get ready to attach. Start with small ones, like 480x320, that you know are tiny and will fit, but large ones can fit too as some folks post.
Best,
Ron
It isn't the site, it might be your procedure or the picture size. The picture must be less in size than the stated maximum on the screen when you get ready to attach. Start with small ones, like 480x320, that you know are tiny and will fit, but large ones can fit too as some folks post.
Best,
Ron
Rune
Supporter
There has been discusted different types of fire supression systems . But You all should think off preventing a fire to start. Find out where or why You can have a fire . The protection systems must be installed if You still think there may be a change for a fuel leak.Wich always can occure caused by others etc.
In my aircraft I always use stainless steel tubing on fuel lines where it is possible.
AN-fitting ,high uality aeroquip hoses with firejackets on all flexible lines. And I always do pressure testing on the complete fuelsystem on working pressure every year. Every 5 year I pressuretest on 3 times the working pressure. In my 20 year I have not seen any lekage on the fuel system on mine aircrafts. So therefore I belive that a very good safety maintenance on this system is a good insurance. I know some about this thing during 40 years in oil busines offshore.
In my aircraft I always use stainless steel tubing on fuel lines where it is possible.
AN-fitting ,high uality aeroquip hoses with firejackets on all flexible lines. And I always do pressure testing on the complete fuelsystem on working pressure every year. Every 5 year I pressuretest on 3 times the working pressure. In my 20 year I have not seen any lekage on the fuel system on mine aircrafts. So therefore I belive that a very good safety maintenance on this system is a good insurance. I know some about this thing during 40 years in oil busines offshore.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
It's not necessarily a problem of your own making as you rightly point out. Accidents can happen for a whole myriad of reasons
It's nice to know you can kill the power, and if necessary
get out unharmed even though you might have just wasted a few hundred £/$ through the nozzles of your extinguisher as illustrated by Ron Earps post and I'm reasonably sure that Ron had only a finite time to sort himself out.
It's also easier to repair a car thats only been bent rather than incinerated.
Sure, good quality safety maintenance is uppermost in everybody's minds and most guys design safety into their cars as much as they can. Quite a few of the guys here have aviation backgrounds and are accutely aware of Airworthiness requirements but if you think about it, some, but not that many, aircraft accidents are attributable to airworthiness.Many more are attributable to stupidity.
These cars are, IMHO, not that safe and a prime example of that is the layout of the fuel tanks. But, there is nothing that can be done about it. Thats how they were built originally and originality is upper most on most GT40 builders minds.
You are absolutely correct when you say that it can occur caused by others etc.
Working in the oil business as you do, I'm sure that safety is probably instilled into every employee but still accidents occur. I worked for a while shipping guys out to the Ninian Central Platform from Aberdeen and Unst. Why did they all wear survival suits? Because of an accident. Why did all the S61 crews change from wearing shirtsleeves into immersion suits? The same when a BA S61 ditched - an accident. The suit was absolutely horrible to wear but I would have never ever been without it. It's the same with any safety equipment.
Accidents happen and if you've done everything humanly possible to "Cover Your Arse" then you are half way there.
It's nice to know you can kill the power, and if necessary
get out unharmed even though you might have just wasted a few hundred £/$ through the nozzles of your extinguisher as illustrated by Ron Earps post and I'm reasonably sure that Ron had only a finite time to sort himself out.
It's also easier to repair a car thats only been bent rather than incinerated.
Sure, good quality safety maintenance is uppermost in everybody's minds and most guys design safety into their cars as much as they can. Quite a few of the guys here have aviation backgrounds and are accutely aware of Airworthiness requirements but if you think about it, some, but not that many, aircraft accidents are attributable to airworthiness.Many more are attributable to stupidity.
These cars are, IMHO, not that safe and a prime example of that is the layout of the fuel tanks. But, there is nothing that can be done about it. Thats how they were built originally and originality is upper most on most GT40 builders minds.
You are absolutely correct when you say that it can occur caused by others etc.
Working in the oil business as you do, I'm sure that safety is probably instilled into every employee but still accidents occur. I worked for a while shipping guys out to the Ninian Central Platform from Aberdeen and Unst. Why did they all wear survival suits? Because of an accident. Why did all the S61 crews change from wearing shirtsleeves into immersion suits? The same when a BA S61 ditched - an accident. The suit was absolutely horrible to wear but I would have never ever been without it. It's the same with any safety equipment.
Accidents happen and if you've done everything humanly possible to "Cover Your Arse" then you are half way there.
I have a Safecraft 10lb Halon in the 65 mustang with nozzles in the Fuel Cell area, Passenger Compartment, and one into the engine area. It is a very nice system. The have some foam on the site but shows as unavailable for a while. They also look nice (polished stainless)
For the GT40, likely will go with someting similar from Safecraft. The price for the 10lb Halon was around $400 USD as I recall a while ago, but worth every penny in case a mishap.
Good topic to bring up!
Sandy
The original GT40's (well #9) uses a Sylvania fire detection system that was automatic from what it seems from the little info I found.
Any comments on the Halon vs the Foam systems? Skipping the price of the agent as I'm sure the Halon is way more money for a refill.
Sandy
For the GT40, likely will go with someting similar from Safecraft. The price for the 10lb Halon was around $400 USD as I recall a while ago, but worth every penny in case a mishap.
Good topic to bring up!
Sandy
The original GT40's (well #9) uses a Sylvania fire detection system that was automatic from what it seems from the little info I found.
Any comments on the Halon vs the Foam systems? Skipping the price of the agent as I'm sure the Halon is way more money for a refill.
Sandy
David,
Any Halon extinguisher, whether hand held or plumbed in will be rejected by a scrutineer for UK or European circuit racing. That is, if he or she looks at them properly.
As an extra to this debate, can i please advice anyone with plumbed in systems to ALLWAYS cover your junction points with a protective wrapping, as they are normally plastic and will melt quickly in the event of a fire in the right(wrong) place. A Lola has just had that happen with dire results so don,t say i didn,t warn you.
Graham @ GTA Racing.
Any Halon extinguisher, whether hand held or plumbed in will be rejected by a scrutineer for UK or European circuit racing. That is, if he or she looks at them properly.
As an extra to this debate, can i please advice anyone with plumbed in systems to ALLWAYS cover your junction points with a protective wrapping, as they are normally plastic and will melt quickly in the event of a fire in the right(wrong) place. A Lola has just had that happen with dire results so don,t say i didn,t warn you.
Graham @ GTA Racing.
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
David, thanks for the link to the FPAA brochure - very helpful. I figure that my portable dry chemical (powder) ones seem to cover the most likely situations (fuel & electrical).
I plan to install a plumbed-in "bomb" type to flood the engine bay (& maybe the cockpit). It looks like a toss-up between powder & foam for this - the only worry about foam being the quote "dangerous if used for electrically energised equipment". The battery & main fuse links (not to mention the ignition system!) is all in the engine bay, so maybe powder is the way to go ?
Thanks again,
Peter D.
I plan to install a plumbed-in "bomb" type to flood the engine bay (& maybe the cockpit). It looks like a toss-up between powder & foam for this - the only worry about foam being the quote "dangerous if used for electrically energised equipment". The battery & main fuse links (not to mention the ignition system!) is all in the engine bay, so maybe powder is the way to go ?
Thanks again,
Peter D.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Graham,
I think you may have missed the point of the question I asked earlier.
Again: <font color="blue"> Hypothetical Question - say if a guy turned up for scrutineering with AFFF foam system installed and in addition had a BCF Halon hand held securely installed as well, he will pass scrutineering.?
</font> I have been told that provided the car conforms to the RAC blue book,whatever else is in the car is academic and of no concern to scrutineers. <font color="blue"> </font>
I think you may have missed the point of the question I asked earlier.
Again: <font color="blue"> Hypothetical Question - say if a guy turned up for scrutineering with AFFF foam system installed and in addition had a BCF Halon hand held securely installed as well, he will pass scrutineering.?
</font> I have been told that provided the car conforms to the RAC blue book,whatever else is in the car is academic and of no concern to scrutineers. <font color="blue"> </font>
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
David M, I forgot to ask about your earlier reference to a "fire wire detection system". I am guessing that it is a form of automated fire system trigger - not a bad idea when I contemplate the situation of sitting unconcious in a burning car, surrounded by 80L of fuel, & not being able to pull the handle on a manual system !! Would you mind elaborating a bit ?
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Hi Peter,
If my memory serves me, the chemical make up of fire wires is Sodium Dioxide (SiO2) which goes open circuit at either 495c for an overheat or 695c for a fire. The open circuit idea is to maintain continuity for integrity testing. Wires are arranged in pairs ie two overheat and two fire so that you have a primary and secondary and both have to detect to configure the warnings which are in the case of overheat a screen warning plus attention getter and in the case of a fire, screen warning, loud shrill bell, and electro-mechanical unlocking of the fire extinguisher handle which is also illuminated. To just follow on what happens when you operate the handle you have two shots which you use 30 seconds apart (if the first shot does not extinguish the fire) and it's pulled out and rotated one way for the first shot and the other way for the second. It does just about everything to stop the engine - fuel off, generator off,bleed air off, hydraulics, oil, pylon fuel valve, you name it it does it. And then about 30kg of Halon goes in per shot.
In the event of undercarriage overheat - the 747 bays are so vast and so well ventilated anyway that anything but lowering the undercarriage again is a waste of effort.(So if you've just taken off as a Pax and suddenly the undercarriage comes down again - usually about 30 seconds after it's just come up on take off - really fasten your seat belt and adopt the position) This is all from memory by the way as I haven't flown the 747 for 6 years and I had a stroke in 2002 so there are some holes in the memory bank.
Now, looking at our cars and the scenario you pose - firstly yes it could be done, secondly at what cost, and thirdly - what changes in how we could configure it could be suggested.
Maybe you could arm a system to operate independantly and automatically, maybe with a parallel operation through an inertia switch. So many other possibilities. There may be other sensors on the market that would do the business instead of fire wire. I wish we had this thread at the end of last year's season as I could have devoted a bit more time and had a look around through the winter (sorry Peter - your summer). Maybe next winter as a project. Anybody else with anything to add or other useful products they know of - answers on a postcard ?
Dave M
If my memory serves me, the chemical make up of fire wires is Sodium Dioxide (SiO2) which goes open circuit at either 495c for an overheat or 695c for a fire. The open circuit idea is to maintain continuity for integrity testing. Wires are arranged in pairs ie two overheat and two fire so that you have a primary and secondary and both have to detect to configure the warnings which are in the case of overheat a screen warning plus attention getter and in the case of a fire, screen warning, loud shrill bell, and electro-mechanical unlocking of the fire extinguisher handle which is also illuminated. To just follow on what happens when you operate the handle you have two shots which you use 30 seconds apart (if the first shot does not extinguish the fire) and it's pulled out and rotated one way for the first shot and the other way for the second. It does just about everything to stop the engine - fuel off, generator off,bleed air off, hydraulics, oil, pylon fuel valve, you name it it does it. And then about 30kg of Halon goes in per shot.
In the event of undercarriage overheat - the 747 bays are so vast and so well ventilated anyway that anything but lowering the undercarriage again is a waste of effort.(So if you've just taken off as a Pax and suddenly the undercarriage comes down again - usually about 30 seconds after it's just come up on take off - really fasten your seat belt and adopt the position) This is all from memory by the way as I haven't flown the 747 for 6 years and I had a stroke in 2002 so there are some holes in the memory bank.
Now, looking at our cars and the scenario you pose - firstly yes it could be done, secondly at what cost, and thirdly - what changes in how we could configure it could be suggested.
Maybe you could arm a system to operate independantly and automatically, maybe with a parallel operation through an inertia switch. So many other possibilities. There may be other sensors on the market that would do the business instead of fire wire. I wish we had this thread at the end of last year's season as I could have devoted a bit more time and had a look around through the winter (sorry Peter - your summer). Maybe next winter as a project. Anybody else with anything to add or other useful products they know of - answers on a postcard ?
Dave M
I think Safecraft has something like an automated trigger now. Not sure of the details but looks like might be something to use as a secondary automatic system or something like that.
"Safecraft Model AT10 NASCAR Automatic Thermal Extinguisher"
The way that I think about using the fire system in the car is a seperate system for the engine bay and one for me. The automatic might be good for the cockpit, and manual for the engine bay, which I'm guessing is more of a problem (if not in a wreck that is).
Sandy
"Safecraft Model AT10 NASCAR Automatic Thermal Extinguisher"
The way that I think about using the fire system in the car is a seperate system for the engine bay and one for me. The automatic might be good for the cockpit, and manual for the engine bay, which I'm guessing is more of a problem (if not in a wreck that is).
Sandy
Rune
Supporter
The supression systems have one thing they share . They do not last more than 20-60sec.What then If a lekage is not stopped from the tank(s)?? You still have a fire or a potentiel fire if a ignition coarse is present. I have not seen a fuel cut off valve discussion in this forum or in any other forum for gt40 . but I have not seen all forums , so this could have been a tread sometime. It seems for me as a good idea.To have a cut off valve that cut the source of fuel in a emergecy . Some info on this from the people that have been here a while?
Rune
Rune
I got a fuel shut off switch from HRP racing that is mandatory on all SCCA, T/A and other cars. I think it is a standard Ford part (Might be UK/Europe part HRP has a photo www.hrpworld.com), about $60. IT works in such a way that on crash or harsh impact will kill the circuit. I think most cars have something like them now a days.
How harsh...
When I was up at Monterey Historics for the Ford event, they were giving rides to some of the 'special folks', Jay Leno and the likes, and my friend who's coat tails I was a riding. Well I got stuck with the Saab Lime Green turbo bringing up the rear (far rear in this case), and he got a run in the Red GT prototype (with a non working fuel gauge) with a another fellow. The other fellow, on one of the speed runs in Carmel, kicked the foot box hard enough to cause the switch to trigger. Took a lot of Ford people to finally figure it out (A crusty older Gentlemen showed all they young engineers up).
So hard to say how sensitive they are but a good bet if you have a wreck one less switch to flip.
Also, not sure but somewhere in the back of my mind says that some of the EFI controllers will/can take care of the pump, so if it detects < some RPM for a period of time, the pump will be shut down by the controller. For carb'ed cars, worth adding.
I have de-railed again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sandy
How harsh...
When I was up at Monterey Historics for the Ford event, they were giving rides to some of the 'special folks', Jay Leno and the likes, and my friend who's coat tails I was a riding. Well I got stuck with the Saab Lime Green turbo bringing up the rear (far rear in this case), and he got a run in the Red GT prototype (with a non working fuel gauge) with a another fellow. The other fellow, on one of the speed runs in Carmel, kicked the foot box hard enough to cause the switch to trigger. Took a lot of Ford people to finally figure it out (A crusty older Gentlemen showed all they young engineers up).
So hard to say how sensitive they are but a good bet if you have a wreck one less switch to flip.
Also, not sure but somewhere in the back of my mind says that some of the EFI controllers will/can take care of the pump, so if it detects < some RPM for a period of time, the pump will be shut down by the controller. For carb'ed cars, worth adding.
I have de-railed again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sandy
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
David M - thanks for that info on the fire-wire - I'll have a look around here in Oz to see if I can find something based on this idea.
The inertia switch in my old XJS used to pop out from time to time on very bumpy roads - a bit disconcerting the first time - where to look first in a forest of Lucas electrics !
It also made a handy backup to the car alarm/immobiliser - just pull the knob up & the average joy-rider was going nowhere !
I have an Autronic ECU in the '40 & it runs the pumps for 5 sec when you turn the ign on, then stops. When the engine turns, it sees the trigger signal from the dizzy & starts the pumps. As soon as the trigger signal is lost, it kills the pumps. (I am fairly certain that the Motec ECU has the same setup). This system offers a neat solution to the prang where the engine stops, but I think I'll look for an inertia switch to deal with the other sort of prang.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
The inertia switch in my old XJS used to pop out from time to time on very bumpy roads - a bit disconcerting the first time - where to look first in a forest of Lucas electrics !
It also made a handy backup to the car alarm/immobiliser - just pull the knob up & the average joy-rider was going nowhere !
I have an Autronic ECU in the '40 & it runs the pumps for 5 sec when you turn the ign on, then stops. When the engine turns, it sees the trigger signal from the dizzy & starts the pumps. As soon as the trigger signal is lost, it kills the pumps. (I am fairly certain that the Motec ECU has the same setup). This system offers a neat solution to the prang where the engine stops, but I think I'll look for an inertia switch to deal with the other sort of prang.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Re: Fire suppression systems....who has em??
[ QUOTE ]
I have a halon system . I was able to put the bottle under the seat.2 nozzles, one in passengers comp. and one in engine bay. It really doesn't matter too much which way the nozzle is pointed. The compartment is flooded instantly. Dave,what was your thinking behind the foam for the passenger compartment? It seem mighty messy as well as making it very difficult to see what you need to see when exiting a burning car.
Bill
[/ QUOTE ]
Please correct me if I'm wrong! I was told that Halon would cause freeze burns if it came in contact with skin and being heavier than air it would cause problems with ones lungs by displacing oxygen.
[ QUOTE ]
I have a halon system . I was able to put the bottle under the seat.2 nozzles, one in passengers comp. and one in engine bay. It really doesn't matter too much which way the nozzle is pointed. The compartment is flooded instantly. Dave,what was your thinking behind the foam for the passenger compartment? It seem mighty messy as well as making it very difficult to see what you need to see when exiting a burning car.
Bill
[/ QUOTE ]
Please correct me if I'm wrong! I was told that Halon would cause freeze burns if it came in contact with skin and being heavier than air it would cause problems with ones lungs by displacing oxygen.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Re: Fire suppression systems....who has em??
If this Q was for me, my experience of foam is ghastly. Sure, it's a great fire 'blanketer' but its like being drenched in mildly diluted washing up liquid. You certainly cannot grip anything, getting out (just to get hold of things to lever your self out) is nigh on impossible and if you are still in a high temperature environ (with probably a closed visor) or you wear spectacles - forget it.
Once had to use a foam carpet on a runway with a nose oleo
sequencing failure.Nobody was hurt until one jumped out of the fuselage onto the foam and then went base over apex and damaged his coccyx. Ouch.
This was not the same foam as is used in AFFF extinguishers
and I don't really know how much foam would be involved in it were released in the cabin. Ron Earp - did you have any problems if you were in contact with the foam in your incident.
Halon - Sure you certanly can't breath in it and sure if you were close enough to the nozzles I guess you would get a freeze burn. Egress is everything and maybe each of us should practise doing it rapidly. You never know - it may be useful to provide another handgrip somewhere - especially for those of us in the advancing years and getting somewhere near the top on the seniority list. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If this Q was for me, my experience of foam is ghastly. Sure, it's a great fire 'blanketer' but its like being drenched in mildly diluted washing up liquid. You certainly cannot grip anything, getting out (just to get hold of things to lever your self out) is nigh on impossible and if you are still in a high temperature environ (with probably a closed visor) or you wear spectacles - forget it.
Once had to use a foam carpet on a runway with a nose oleo
sequencing failure.Nobody was hurt until one jumped out of the fuselage onto the foam and then went base over apex and damaged his coccyx. Ouch.
This was not the same foam as is used in AFFF extinguishers
and I don't really know how much foam would be involved in it were released in the cabin. Ron Earp - did you have any problems if you were in contact with the foam in your incident.
Halon - Sure you certanly can't breath in it and sure if you were close enough to the nozzles I guess you would get a freeze burn. Egress is everything and maybe each of us should practise doing it rapidly. You never know - it may be useful to provide another handgrip somewhere - especially for those of us in the advancing years and getting somewhere near the top on the seniority list. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Rob
Lifetime Supporter
Re: Fire suppression systems....who has em??
I am very glad I decided to post this query. It has turned into a great read. There is some good info and experience amongst the group.
The comments regarding value of the systems, especially in cars such as the 40 with difficult egress are not debatable. We should certainly all have a system in our cars.
The inertia switches (IMHO) are also mandatory equipment for the fuel pump power relay. I have been using them in every car I've built for the past 15 years.
I think the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump(s) are a great idea too, hadn't thought of that. Found one in Summit catalog for $12. Good belt and suspenders.... and quite inexpensive.
Thermal activation for in cabin system sounds good, but the only ones I have found are Halon (safecraft).
Based on this discussion, I will stay clear of Halon, in order to be EU compliant.
I think plumbing two systems or at bare min two circuts, one cabin and one plumbed around the induction as Dave M. has is an excellent idea.
Found these as potential options:
Safecraft option $415
http://www.safecraft.com/product_page_de...4&menu=&Search=
Pegasus opton $424
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=2436
Bimmerworld $299
https://secure7.nexternal.com/shared/Sto...et=products.asp
Racerswholesale $350 (I like this one in that it has alum tube, not plastic)
http://www.racerwholesale.com/catalog/pr...717982016a0e4fd
I am very glad I decided to post this query. It has turned into a great read. There is some good info and experience amongst the group.
The comments regarding value of the systems, especially in cars such as the 40 with difficult egress are not debatable. We should certainly all have a system in our cars.
The inertia switches (IMHO) are also mandatory equipment for the fuel pump power relay. I have been using them in every car I've built for the past 15 years.
I think the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump(s) are a great idea too, hadn't thought of that. Found one in Summit catalog for $12. Good belt and suspenders.... and quite inexpensive.
Thermal activation for in cabin system sounds good, but the only ones I have found are Halon (safecraft).
Based on this discussion, I will stay clear of Halon, in order to be EU compliant.
I think plumbing two systems or at bare min two circuts, one cabin and one plumbed around the induction as Dave M. has is an excellent idea.
Found these as potential options:
Safecraft option $415
http://www.safecraft.com/product_page_de...4&menu=&Search=
Pegasus opton $424
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=2436
Bimmerworld $299
https://secure7.nexternal.com/shared/Sto...et=products.asp
Racerswholesale $350 (I like this one in that it has alum tube, not plastic)
http://www.racerwholesale.com/catalog/pr...717982016a0e4fd
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