Ford F3L and David Piper

Hi Leopold!

Thanks again to take the time to answer my dummy's questions...
If I understand well, your press is designed to optimize deformation of itselfs in several cases of bending?

Olivier remember there are no dummy questions, there are just, as one of my former teachers usually said, dumb answers....
As far as the press is concerned, it is exactly as you say. When I was doing the design I found out that the lower part of the press (the tripled I beam) is displaced for nearly 2/10ths of a mm when the hydraulics is fully engaged to 25tons. Well that was too much for me, and the I-beam was already 340mm (!) with doublers at top and bottom. Then I decided to design the upper parts so that they deform the same way to still keep the bending operation very precise. That way I could save some money on the material (1kg steel is about 1€ at the moment as far as I know) and keep the press mobile and light (check the wheels).

About you comment concerning the presed parts:
I think we are not talking about the same things here:
Lets consider parts curved in two directions (like e.g. a roof) and parts pressed like e.g. ribs, floor panels and so on which are structurally important.

The main thought about a monocoque is that you use thin walled and closed cells like e.g. the sponsons of the racecars of the 60s or, the classic, the fuselage or wing of an aircraft. These configurations produce very stiff and effective structures (both in bending and torsion) mechanically. Structures loaded purely in tension don't need to be hollow, just if loaded in compression and in danger of buckling (which is - in the end something like bending, for example).
So there are two ways of designing lightweight and effective things (here: car structures):
do them membrane like (with closed, thinwalled cells) or with members just loaded in tension and compression. First being the 'monocoque' (exactly said it would be a multihull or something like that term) and the latter one the frame structure (compare e.g. the Maserati Birdcage).
Both types can be brought to about the same performance in my opinion and experience, but each type has it pros and cons.
Now about the pressed parts: using them doesn't give you huge benefits in terms of lightweight design. It makes it easier to do the joints, mounts and everything else. But this just makes sense if you intend to produce a high number of parts, not just a prototype and a few more.

Just look at the finest of the lightweight designs: the airplane. Here we have completely hollow structures with ribs or bulkheads on the inside to prevent buckling (which is dangerous if the walls get thinner and thinner in design). There are not many pressed parts there, just some ribs or the pressure dome at the end of the cabin (and this has other reasons). Automobile industry just likes the forming of sheets because this can be done quite well in the series and the curved shape of a cars body can be made in that way quite easily.
Using composites doesn't change anything on these principles. This material however is something that the designer has to use very carefully because it has no means of ductility AND possesses directional stiffnes and strength. All the points where loads are introduced have to be designed very carefully and with mechanical understandig. But apart from that the composite material is 'just' another material which has good specific stiffness and strength (and, as well cost...).
 
..here some little update:
I finished everything except the rear horse collar so far, so in two to three weeks time the drawings shall be ready for cutting the sheets..
 

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..some more update on the now, and this time finally, finished monocoque.
This weekend is scheduled for winding down the sheets. In the end this should be a quick process, as I already got the correct k-factors for non-air-bending, so hitting a button should make the correct views for cutting.
 

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I was terribly busy the last few weeks in my regular job, but my father and me managed to get the bendpng press done (in the picture just the hydraulic lines are missing which are done by now) and did some installation work on my (new to the shop) WF1.
August is fabrication month: monocoque.

PS: check the highly illegal foot control on the bending press ;-)
 

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..well, after a lot of problems I am back at my regular job now, doing the next batch of fabrication at the end of September. Attatched are pictures of some example sheet metal parts awaiting installation and my working post for the last two weeks...
My regualr job feels like a vacation..

By the way, the cloth on which the sheet metal parts are stored here are the former curtains of the elementary school of our village ;-)
 

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Hi Leupold!

I had missed your updates.

Shame on you for stilling the curtains of your village's school!

You bending press really looks like coming from outer space! I like it.

Engine mounts for the first parts??

Cheers.

Olivier.
 
..after sorting out the troubles we had with our equipment me and my father yesterday started to do some more sheet metal work. Surprisingly two days of work produce quite some ready for assembly parts.
As we were courious about the fitting of all the bent parts we tried to index them to each other and ended up with a big, big problem: ...everything just fitted perfectly in place. Check the attatched pictures for our progress.
The next two weeks will be full of work like this until I will have to be back at my regular job.
As we were very happy with the days result, we finished with salami, beer and schnaps (the Austrian whiskey)!
Best greetigs from a nice autumn day in Austria...
 

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Howard Jones

Supporter
This project is beyond what I believed was possible for an individual to do on his own. I really don't know what to say except that the bar just keeps going up and up. Hot rod gods.......... is all I can think of. I hope you will publish some sort of book on this project. I would certainly buy one.

Do you intend to manufacture your own engine and trans-axle? No....... I'm not kidding
 
Gentlemen,

sorry for my late answer, but I was too tired the last few days to switch on the computer.
Thank you very much for your nice comments, that surely helps to keep my motivation high ;-)
Howard, nice from you to say, but as I am an engineer I am quite sure that my writing skills (which are as the cliche demands) wouldn't produce a lot "readers pleasure"...
I am going to do the welding of the steel parts tomorrow and saturday, I hope I will be disciplined enough to take pictures and post some of them.
 
...the welding of the steel parts was more work than expected, also the painting was quite demanding. But, fortunately, dad and myself had three very productive riveting days, see pictures. Today I tried the drivers seat, and believe it or not, it is more comfortable than our GT40 (in one picture it the sister car even was degraded to a shelf, sorry for that...)
four to five effective days should give a finished monococue if we can hold that speed. Sadly my holiday is over, so we have to do the remaining stuff on weekends.

best regards from Austria,
just about now we leave for a good Austrian style meal and some Schnaps to the Hatzhof.
 

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As one who has been eagerly watching your progress (along with many others on this thread). . . Thank you! It is hard to find the words to commend such passion and devotion. This is truly the pursuit of perfection.
 
Hi Leoplod,

I am really intrested in alloy mono chassis, and yours is the best I have seen on this site....

I am in the early stages of planning, and designing an all alloy mono chassis for a GT40, and have studied many designs....Maclaren M16/M20......Lola T70... the GT40 MK IV....J cars, and the Lotus Cosworth

I have a few questions for you.....if you dont mind me asking......

You say you are useing a "damage tolerant alluminium"...what grade, and gauge are you useing ?? I am thinking of useing 6082 T6, for the main part of the body, and a 5xxx series, for the ribs..

And also I was wondering, what type of rivets you are useing, and are you bonding the chassis as well as riveting it ??

Any information that you would be prepared to share with me would be greatly appreciated

I look foreward to seeing progress on your chassis

many thanks

mick
 
gentlemen,

thanks a lot, nice to hear that you think positive of our work.

Mick,
I am using 8 different gauges of sheets, which is kind of complicated but necessary if you want to squeeze out as much dead weight of the monocoque as possible. This however can only be done if you perform proper calculation of the design (you have to know which sheet can be thin without producing major penalties).
A big concern about using sheets of strong alloys is that if you have a bent design of the individual parts, you have to make sure that the minimum bending radius you are using is sufficient. I know, nobody takes much care of that but believe me, this is very problematic considering fatigue life.
The precipitation hardening alloys are more sensitive about that, as they usually (the higher the temper stadium, the worse) have high strength, but very low ultimate and uniform elongation. This can be a point when deciding about what alloy you want to use. Keep also in mind that in the (hopefully never exisitng) case of an accident alloys with low ultimate elongations do not take much energy as they are deformed, because failure like cracking occurs quite early.
I hope this info is a little bit of help for you.

Of course our joints are bonded too, but this is not just done to gain strength, as the stiffness of bonding adhesives is only a few percent of the sheet itself (70GPa compared to about 2GPa in the best case). So if this is added th the rivets stiffness, you have to decide if it is even worth the effort.

There are not so many different alloys available for the rivets, we use solid solution hardened ones, i think there are also percipitation hardening ones, but you have to use them during a quite short tempering window which is not really very comfortable during fabrication.

I hope that helps a bit in your stage of design.
Best regards
 
Hello Leopold,
Ford F3L is my first Matchbox toy car in 1970 and after all those years, it's still one of my favourite racecar designs. I just discovered the site, but really glad to see and read abot F3L in the highest level here. I'm not an engineer or technical guy, but have close interest to car design. That's why i have enough intuition that feel your job is almost better than the original and wish you success from the heart. Leonard Bailey's magnum opus always deserve to remember, so, as F3L lover, i feel lucky that a technical genius reincarnate it.
Best regards,
M.Ali
 
Dear Mehmet,
thanks a lot for your nice words.
As you say, behind all the actions is always a motivation, which is fed by whatever source...
My father told me some ten years ago the story about when he first saw a real GT40 back in 1968 after reading all the magazine articles available.
He told me that some weeks afterwards he saw a picture of the very promising F3L before it started its short racing carreer. That was the only thing he could find about the car back then until we surprisingly saw it in Goodwood 2001. We were both just speechless about the elegance of that vehicle when we saw it in real.
That was the beginning of the story, and then in 2007 we had the time and technological capacity to focus on what we do now...
Best regards from Austria
 
Hi Leoplold,

Thanks for answering my questions..

I had done some calculactions, to work out the loadings on the front wishbone mounts, and the results indicated that the rivets would be more than strong enough without the need for adhesive...and as you say, it doesnt give you that much extra strength.( and because of this I had decided against useing adhesive ) So my question here is, what other reason did you use adhesive for, if it wasnt just to gain strength ??

There are so many different alluminiums available,and it does make the chioce very difficult...Lola, and Maclaren both used L163. which has similar properties to 6082 T6,( The tensile strength of L163 is greater, but the yeilds are almost the same ) but L163 elongation is almost double at 14%. so I will probably use L163, (but I will use a large enough bend radius, to avoid fatigue problems.) I know thaere are many different things to concider, but do you think an elongation of 14% would be ok ?? or would you use a alloy with a higher elongation ?

I cant wait to see some more pics of your chassis , as it progresses

mick
 
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