Group Purchase of GT40 Drawings for Public Use
- Thread starter jonnyb
- Start date
Why, as far as I can see they would be of little use to you
My point exactly but why are they not in the public domain? These are all cars of similar history or value. Do you think if you called Ferrari or Porsche they would send us a set? Can I get a copy set of plans for the Empire State Building or a Boieng 707? Why does KFC keep the secret recipe for chicken in vault?
The bottom line is these are out there and worth alot of money to the people who own them. If your cash offer falls in line I am sure they will take notice. I am also sure your way off.
Everything in this world has a value most are set by supply and demand.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
There IS a point here which has been overlooked, I think; the drawings have been advertised for sale. That is how this discussion started. It did not start with a group of people getting together and saying "why don't we see if we can ferret out the original drawings for a GT40 and publish them?" What you basically have here is a discussion about whether we can buy something for sale and then publish it for everyone to look at and possibly use.
Well, why not? The number of people who would benefit in some way far exceeds the number who are currently getting any use out of them. Of course, the current custodians of the drawings may have paid good money for them and don't want to see what they own become worth less- not worthless, but not worth as much.
All it takes, though, is one person with a set of them to decide that he'd like the money, whatever that may be, and that he doesn't care much about making other folks's sets of the drawings worth less money. Sooner or later, that is going to occur. Maybe not now, but at some point it will.
Well, why not? The number of people who would benefit in some way far exceeds the number who are currently getting any use out of them. Of course, the current custodians of the drawings may have paid good money for them and don't want to see what they own become worth less- not worthless, but not worth as much.
All it takes, though, is one person with a set of them to decide that he'd like the money, whatever that may be, and that he doesn't care much about making other folks's sets of the drawings worth less money. Sooner or later, that is going to occur. Maybe not now, but at some point it will.
Exactly Jim, & while meaning no disrespect for Jay, it would appear he does have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo with his involvement with Gox for mono chassis & his own line of parts made to original drawings, whether this venture would have a negative or positive effect on that is unknown... given the projects on this site I would venture to suggest it might be a plus with more cars being built & depending on what degree of originality the owners were after... however what Jay & others do is their business.... just as what we as a group decide to do is ours....... Its just that I sense we are being told that we 'Cant' do it, & people have tried to tell me I cant do things before..... I wish they would not do that..
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
I respect your wishes and would defend your right do do exactly what you want.
I fear it will not be what you all want and then become another point of discussion about why such illustrations don't do it for you individually, and lastly how you might have wasted your money. Don't let me get in your way though.
I fear it will not be what you all want and then become another point of discussion about why such illustrations don't do it for you individually, and lastly how you might have wasted your money. Don't let me get in your way though.
Jac and Jim I agree with you 100% with your last posts. But I am sure it will not effect my business either way. I am also sure you can buy a correct mono cheaper than you could build your own if I gave you a set of prints for free. The jigs and fixtures to do the job right would surpass the cost of the first couple monos.
Nobody said that anybody here can not do whatever they please. I know I do. I was just trying to supply correct info about the cause. I also pointed out that nobody has a right to them without buying or earning it in some way. I also pointed out the prints for most every car are not in the public domain and nobody cared to say a word about that. Just because you own a forum or a replicar does not entitle you to something.
Does RCR or anybody else post their plans for the world to see? I think Fran has worked, deveoped and paid for his info and protects it just the same. There are many reasons why this kind of info is not made public.
I am fairly confident with enough money a near complete and updated set could be procured but it would be in the 6 figure range.
1 last note about the small group of prints available last year (and most other copies of 40 year old prints) is the condition. Most are hardly readable. I would post a couple on here if the files were not so big just to let you see what can be bought these days. Maybe Jimmy Mac can resize a couple to show you.
Nobody said that anybody here can not do whatever they please. I know I do. I was just trying to supply correct info about the cause. I also pointed out that nobody has a right to them without buying or earning it in some way. I also pointed out the prints for most every car are not in the public domain and nobody cared to say a word about that. Just because you own a forum or a replicar does not entitle you to something.
Does RCR or anybody else post their plans for the world to see? I think Fran has worked, deveoped and paid for his info and protects it just the same. There are many reasons why this kind of info is not made public.
I am fairly confident with enough money a near complete and updated set could be procured but it would be in the 6 figure range.
1 last note about the small group of prints available last year (and most other copies of 40 year old prints) is the condition. Most are hardly readable. I would post a couple on here if the files were not so big just to let you see what can be bought these days. Maybe Jimmy Mac can resize a couple to show you.
FAV made drawings available to various teams over the years of active competition which is one reason why there are multiple sets about. More importantly FAV has not been a trading entity for 35 years so comparisons with Porsche etc are not really fair.
Lim : Yes, I am in 100$
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I can't speak for others, but I have absolutely NO intention of building a monocoque of my own, nor funding anyone else to do it. Once was enough on this. If I were to do it again (and if I had ideas like that I would run, not walk, to the nearest CT scanner to see if I still had a brain left up there), I would order a chassis from GOX or whoever was making the most accurate one and could deliver it reliably and promptly. More than likely, I would order a print of one of the drawings that I liked best and have it framed. I have a lines drawing of my Hatteras convertible, courtesy of Jack Hargrave, the naval architect that designed the boat. It's hung over my fireplace for decades now. If a complete set of drawings was available, I would probably see if I could replace some of the bits on my car with things that were more original, but I might be able to do that without the drawings just by buying parts like that from Jay.
No, I just think if we can place these out for everyone to enjoy them we'll all be entertained and amused. I don't think very many are going to tackle building a complete tub from the drawings if they are ever available.
No, I just think if we can place these out for everyone to enjoy them we'll all be entertained and amused. I don't think very many are going to tackle building a complete tub from the drawings if they are ever available.
There would be some that would try to build and then whine about the plans. But I believe that most of the people on list would use the plans for a good read, maybe have piece or two made up and hung on wall.
My idea is to get the plans blown up and hang them on the wall in my garage in a series.
If a real set of plans can be sort and varified as complete I will change my contribution from $100 US to $1000. Lets get 10 or 12 of us together and I'm sure somoene will come up with the plans for 10k or so.
If you have the plans and want to sell then lets here your price??
My idea is to get the plans blown up and hang them on the wall in my garage in a series.
If a real set of plans can be sort and varified as complete I will change my contribution from $100 US to $1000. Lets get 10 or 12 of us together and I'm sure somoene will come up with the plans for 10k or so.
If you have the plans and want to sell then lets here your price??
Dave Wood
Lifetime Supporter
Not to belabor the point...But I believe, if you wanted, you could get blueprints of both these. The Empire State building had to have blueprints submitted for the construction, so they are most likely in the public domain and I would not ne surprised that Boeing 707 blueprints are also available, they are outdated so little would be lost to Boeing.
I haven't ever tried, because I have no interest or need and neither the money or inclination to undertake such a task. Both would require major obstacles to use the blueprints to begin with. You couldn't construct a building without the land and approval of the local federales and the airplane could never be used without approval of the federal federales. Patents only last for 17 years and then anyone can build whatever it is they cover. Even when the patent is in effect anyone can build the same thing..for themselves, it's when you attempt to make money on it that "infringements" come in. So..why is it such a big deal for what is basicly an antique car?? I believe it is carbon fiber and other exotic materials/construction that are the current technology. I can get blueprints for the model T. There are many more of those and probably a larger market.
As has been mentioned repeatedly, most have no intention of doing a build from them, but even if they did, if it is for their own use why is it different than an existing patent? This whole dance reminds me of all the old farts that I have approached about classic cars...they don't want to sell...No they would rather let them rust into the ground so they aren't even worth original scrap value.That's fine, because they OWN it. Anyone in possession of whatever prints are wanted doesn't own anything other than the prints. They have no ownership of the engineering. This stuff makes me hope someone dies with the prints in their possession and their heirs print up thousands in comic book form. Appropriate.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Well, I hope no one dies with a set of them; far be it from me to wish a quietus on anyone, much less a fellow GT40 enthusiast. Let's be realistic here and not let rhetoric carry us away, something to which I am particularly prone.
I have seen the enormous lengths that fellow members (Andy and Jay, just to name two) are going to in order to reproduce GT40 bits and pieces; the amount of effort is huge. I am glad there are people who want to make this items, because if they didn't, I'd have to get them somewhere, possibly made as individual units at MUCH higher costs. I don't want to have to do that.
Some of our fellow members are people who have a lot of machining expertise and are really able to make anything they wish to for a GT40. Good for them. I can't do that- wish I could. So I have to find the parts other ways; either by buying them from someone else who is able to make them, or has them used, or by getting them made locally by people who are not GT40 enthusiasts but are good machinists and can make something as a copy or from a drawing. I CAN make drawings, after a fashion. Sort of.
I have the impression that some of our members are using the reproduction of various parts as a way to finance the construction of their own cars. Good for them; I'm happy to buy parts from them if that helps them along their way and gets me something I need. And if they have paid for a set of GT40 plans in order to be able to make those parts, then the purchase of the plans is part of their cost of doing business and they are entitled to price their parts in such a way as to try to recoup the costs of them.
But I don't think that just having a set of plans out in public view will make any difference to those folks who are making GT40 parts in small quantities. If anything, it may increase their order volume, since potential buyers would then be able to refer to a specific part and drawing when ordering what they need. Speaking only for myself, I would MUCH rather call up someone (like Jay) who already makes GT40 parts and ask him to give me a price on something made from a specific drawing. Or organize a group buy of something made from a specific drawing. I don't want to walk into Acme Machine Shop and ask them to make something they've never seen the original of.
My point here, which I am not doing a very good job of putting across, is that there is a great deal more to making these parts than just having a drawing of them. To beat my old analogy one more time, I can look at drawings all day long of how to do a medical procedure, but looking at the drawings and actually DOING it are two totally different things. We all know that even from the drawings (which are old, revised, etc, as Jay pointed out) it could very well take multiple tries to make one functional part. So I see the availability of the drawings, whatever is out there, as an information resource which I would be happy to have available. The drawings, though, are not the only resource and they are most valuable when interpreted by someone who has looked at a lot of GT40s, handled a lot of GT40 parts, and made a lot of GT40 parts.
To use a final analogy, and maybe a better one, looking at the drawings is kind of like seeing the score of a great piece of classical music, if you can read music that well. Sure, you can "hear" it in your head by reading the score- kind of.
Then you hear it, performed by a live orchestra. And you REALLY hear it. That's the difference- the interpretation and execution of the instructions. The drawings are the instructions- not the performance.
I have seen the enormous lengths that fellow members (Andy and Jay, just to name two) are going to in order to reproduce GT40 bits and pieces; the amount of effort is huge. I am glad there are people who want to make this items, because if they didn't, I'd have to get them somewhere, possibly made as individual units at MUCH higher costs. I don't want to have to do that.
Some of our fellow members are people who have a lot of machining expertise and are really able to make anything they wish to for a GT40. Good for them. I can't do that- wish I could. So I have to find the parts other ways; either by buying them from someone else who is able to make them, or has them used, or by getting them made locally by people who are not GT40 enthusiasts but are good machinists and can make something as a copy or from a drawing. I CAN make drawings, after a fashion. Sort of.
I have the impression that some of our members are using the reproduction of various parts as a way to finance the construction of their own cars. Good for them; I'm happy to buy parts from them if that helps them along their way and gets me something I need. And if they have paid for a set of GT40 plans in order to be able to make those parts, then the purchase of the plans is part of their cost of doing business and they are entitled to price their parts in such a way as to try to recoup the costs of them.
But I don't think that just having a set of plans out in public view will make any difference to those folks who are making GT40 parts in small quantities. If anything, it may increase their order volume, since potential buyers would then be able to refer to a specific part and drawing when ordering what they need. Speaking only for myself, I would MUCH rather call up someone (like Jay) who already makes GT40 parts and ask him to give me a price on something made from a specific drawing. Or organize a group buy of something made from a specific drawing. I don't want to walk into Acme Machine Shop and ask them to make something they've never seen the original of.
My point here, which I am not doing a very good job of putting across, is that there is a great deal more to making these parts than just having a drawing of them. To beat my old analogy one more time, I can look at drawings all day long of how to do a medical procedure, but looking at the drawings and actually DOING it are two totally different things. We all know that even from the drawings (which are old, revised, etc, as Jay pointed out) it could very well take multiple tries to make one functional part. So I see the availability of the drawings, whatever is out there, as an information resource which I would be happy to have available. The drawings, though, are not the only resource and they are most valuable when interpreted by someone who has looked at a lot of GT40s, handled a lot of GT40 parts, and made a lot of GT40 parts.
To use a final analogy, and maybe a better one, looking at the drawings is kind of like seeing the score of a great piece of classical music, if you can read music that well. Sure, you can "hear" it in your head by reading the score- kind of.
Then you hear it, performed by a live orchestra. And you REALLY hear it. That's the difference- the interpretation and execution of the instructions. The drawings are the instructions- not the performance.
Really?
I've tried for the 917, and contacted the Porsche's historical archives dpt, and I was returned a negative answer.
Did something changed since???
Olivier
Dave Wood
Lifetime Supporter
Jim,
I'm sorry if it seemed I was directing at anyone, I wasn't. If someone is building parts, that is far different than someone that is sitting on the prints...just so they can say they do. There are people like that, I wouldn't neccesarily call them any kind of enthusiast. Someone that hides art away just so they can enjoy it doesn't fall into an "art enthusiast" either IMHO. Those would be people that also support art theft, so I'm not sure how you would categorize them..
I'm sorry if it seemed I was directing at anyone, I wasn't. If someone is building parts, that is far different than someone that is sitting on the prints...just so they can say they do. There are people like that, I wouldn't neccesarily call them any kind of enthusiast. Someone that hides art away just so they can enjoy it doesn't fall into an "art enthusiast" either IMHO. Those would be people that also support art theft, so I'm not sure how you would categorize them..
Ironically, when I was at VIR last week Val and I were discussing the rear sway bar. He walked into his office and pulled out his copy of the original design drawings. Its a book, kinda legal size, obviously old. It has all the schematics for everything (except the rear sway bar). I think he has it from working on originals in the past. He didn't think anything of it, thought it was funny how excited I was
