Is the right to bear arms outdated.

[Larry L.]

WHO IS THE SOURCE of this piece??? You left that out. The source matters. So does "creative editing". (E.g.: Remember "Surrender to me"? Remember the 9-1-1 tape that was altered to make Zimmerman look like a racist? Remember Rather's accusations about Bush's service? Remember Reid's 'Romney-hasn't-paid-income-taxes' charges?)

From whom has the exact "the answer is more guns" comment allegedly been taken? "He" isn't named. Nor is the context in which the comment was supposedly made. The 'statement' is simply stuck in there. Are you trying to imply La Pierre said it?

 

[Jim Craik]

Larry,

Just Google "we need more guns, not less", there is lots of data.

So Larry, if you think that anyone who would say that more guns is the answer must be drunk, I take it you also feel that the answer is less guns?

 

[John Milmont]

Actually, more guns might be the answer! I think we can have no guns or we can have lots of guns, but you can't have this in between stuff that we are doing now.

We know that we cant have no-guns because 'that horse has already left the barn!'. If you think otherwise, Jim, you should try knocking on some doors and try to take them away.

 

[Larry L.]

Larry,

Just Google "we need more guns, not less", there is lots of data.

I asked for a link to the piece you just quoted. You know where it is. I don't. I want to know the source.

So Larry, if you think that anyone who would say that more guns is the answer must be drunk, I take it you also feel that the answer is less guns?

What I've said r-e-p-e-a-t-e-d-l-y is what the answer is NOT. Namely: Further infringement on law abiding people's right to keep and bear. What I've also r-e-p-e-a-t-e-d-l-y said is HARD TIME should be mandatory for those convicted of gun crimes (or crimes using any deadly weapon)...and an automatic death penalty should be handed down to anyone who kills someone with a gun - or any deadly weapon - in the commission of a crime. That will go one heck of a lot further toward cutting weapons crimes than limiting what law abiding people can and cannot keep and bear.

Now, where's the link to the piece you cited...complete with the photo please?




Edit:

An aside:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/2...d-in-parking-lot-after-nfc-championship-game/

Following your logic, does the above indicate we should ban/regulate/restrict the ownership of knives...ban football games...ban parking lots...or do all three?

 

[Jack]

School Stabbing
Med For Depression
2011-10-25
Washington
**Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition
School Shooting
Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med
2011-07-11
Alabama
**14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student
School Shooting
Meds For Depression & ADHD
2011-03-18
South Carolina
**Teen Shoots School Official: Pipe Bombs Found in Backpack
School Massacre Plot
Prozac Withdrawal
2011-02-23
Virginia
**Teen Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison For Columbine Style Plot
School Hostage Situation
Med For Depression
2010-12-15
France
**17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage
School Incident/Bizarre
Zoloft*
2010-08-22
Australia
**School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft
School Knifing/Murder
Meds For Depression & ADHD
2010-04-28
Massachusetts
**Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009
School Shooting
SSRI
2010-02-19
Finland
**On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself
School Shooting Threats
Celexa Antidepressant
2010-01-25
Virginia
**Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied
School Hostage Situation
Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL
2009-11-09
New York
**Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage
School/Assault
Antidepressant
2009-11-04
California
**School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med
School Shooting Plot
Antidepressants
2009-09-22
England
**Two English School Boys Plot to Blow Up High School
School Bomb Threat
Med For Depression
2009-06-29
Australia
**Vexed Father Makes Bomb Threat Against Elementary School
School Shooting
Med For Depression
2009-03-13
Germany
**16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression
School Knife Attack
Treatment For Depression & Strattera
2009-03-10
Belgium
**Three Dead in School Day Care: Two Children & a Caregiver: Happened Jan 23, 2009
School Shooting Plot
Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL
2008-08-28
Texas
**18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
School Threat/Lockdown
Lexapro*
2008-04-18
California
**Violent High School Student Shot to Death on Campus by Police
School Threat
Antidepressants
2008-03-20
Indiana
**Teen [16 Years Old] Brings Gun to School: There Is a Lockdown
School Stabbing
Med For Depression
2008-02-29
Texas
**Teen [17 Year Old GIRL] Stabs Friend & Principal at High School
School / Child Endangerment
Antidepressants
2008-02-27
Canada
**Wacky School Bus Driver Goes Berserk: Also Involved Painkillers
School Suicide/Lockdown
Med For Depression
2008-02-20
Idaho
**Teen [16 Years Old] Kills Self at High School: Lockdown by Police
School Shooting
Prozac WITHDRAWAL
2008-02-15
Illinois
** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically
School Threat
Prozac Antidepressant
2008-01-25
Washington
**Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide
School Shooting
Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL
2007-11-07
Finland
**Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland
School Shooting
Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL
2007-10-12
Ohio
**Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal
School Suspension
Lexapro Antidepressant
2007-07-28
Arkansas
**Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro
School Threat
Wellbutrin Antidepressant
2007-04-24
Tennessee
**Young Boy, 12, Threatens to Shoot Others at School
School Threat
Antidepressants
2007-04-23
Mississippi
**Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
School Shooting
Antidepressant?
2007-04-18
Virginia
**Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech
School Knife Attack
Med for Depression
2006-12-06
Indiana
**Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student
School Stabbing
Wellbutrin
2006-12-04
Indiana
**Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder
School Hostage Situation
Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL
2006-11-28
North Carolina
**Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun
School Shooting
Antidepressant
2006-09-30
Colorado
**Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self
School Shooting
Celexa Antidepressant
2006-08-30
North Carolina
**Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects
School Hostage Situation
Med for Depression
2006-03-09
France
**Young Ex-Teacher Holds 21 Students Hostage
School/Assault
Zoloft Antidepressant
2006-02-15
Tennessee
**Teen Attacks Teacher at School
School Violence
Antidepressant
2005-11-19
Arizona
**Violent 8 Year Old GIRL Handcuffed by Police at School
School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant
2005-03-24
Minnesota
**10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage
School Violence
Paxil
2004-10-23
Washington DC
**Young Boy, 10 Year Old, Has Violent Incidents at School
School Shooting Threat
Med for Depression*
2004-10-19
New Jersey
**Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School
School Shooting
Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant
2004-02-09
New York
**Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School
School Shooting Threat
Antidepressant
2003-05-31
Michigan
**Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism
School Shooting/Suicide
Celexa
2002-10-07
Texas
**Young Girl [13 Years Old] Kills Self at School With a Gun
School Arson Incidents
Paxil
2002-04-12
Michigan
**Unusual Personality Change on Paxil Caused 15 Year Old to Set Fires inside High School
School Violence
Celexa Antidepressant
2002-01-23
Florida
**Violent 8 Year-Old Boy Arrested At School
School Shooting
Antidepressant?
2002-01-17
Virginia
**Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School
School Hostage Situation
Paxil
2001-10-12
North Carolina
**Young Man Holds Three People Hostage in Duke University President's Office
School Machete Attack
Med for Depression
2001-09-26
Pennsylvania
**Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School
School Stabbings
Antidepressants
2001-06-09
Japan
**Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med
School Shooting
Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants
2001-04-19
California
**Teen Shoots at Classmates in School
School Hostage Situation
Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants
2001-04-15
Washington
**Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun
School Shooting
Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant
2001-03-10
Pennsylvania
**14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School
School Hostage Situation
Prozac/ Paxil Antidepressants
2001-01-18
California
**Teen [17 Years Old] Takes Girl Hostage at School: He is Killed by Police
School Threats
Prozac Antidepressant
1999-10-19
Florida
**Teen [16 Years Old] Threatens Classmates With Knife & Fake Explosives
School Shooting
Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants
1999-04-20
Colorado
**COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded
School Shooting Threat
Antidepressant
1999-04-16
Idaho
**Teen Fires Gun in School
School Shooting Plot
Med For Depression
1998-12-01
Wisconsin
**Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School
School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL
1998-05-21
Oregon
**Four Dead: Twenty Injured
School Violence/Murder
Antidepressants*
1998-05-04
New York
**Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School
School Stand-Off
Zoloft Antidepressant
1998-04-13
Idaho
**Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots
School Shooting
Zoloft Antidepressant
1995-10-12
South Carolina
**15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself
School Murder Attempt
Med For Depression
1995-03-04
California
**Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack
School Shooting Related
Luvox
1993-07-23
Florida
**Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported
School Shooting
Antidepressants
1992-09-20
Texas
**Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School
School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant
1992-01-30
Michigan
**School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School
School Shooting
Anafranil Antidepressant
1988-05-20
Illinois
**29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self


What is the common denominator? IT'S NOT GUNS.
Whenever you are trying to correct a bad statistic, you must analyze ALL of the factors that may be causing the unacceptable problem you are trying to correct. There may be several factors, but ONE, is the RIGHT TARGET to attack which will cause an immediate correction of the problem.
Find the RIGHT Target, attack it, and the bad statistic immediately and positively responds.
Attack the wrong target and the bad situation will not improve, and in many cases gets worse.
In analyzing statistics of mass shootings, there are several factors (targets) that have been talked about as the cause of the shootings, including access to guns, lack of proper mental health care, violence in movies, television, and video games.
The danger in lumping all of these factors into the "cause" of mass shootings is that it appeases the public and tricks them into thinking "something has been done" but it hides the RIGHT target and mass shootings not only do not stop, they become more frequent and deadlier.
Isn't that EXACTLY what we have seen over the last 40 years? We have picked the wrong target, because had we selected the right target and attacked it 40 years ago, mass shootings would have stopped. But they have not stopped, they have become more frequent and more deadly.
So what have we targeted as a society to try to stop these mass murders that have clearly been the wrong target?
Guns are the wrong target.
Why?
Because prior to these shootings, there were just as many guns per capita and there was unrestricted access to semiautomatic weapons, even for young adults and kids. But even more evidence that guns are the wrong target is the undeniable fact that in towns, cities, schools, and shopping malls, where guns have been severely restricted and in some cases outright banned, the statistic of murder, HAS NOT DROPPED, IT HAS INCREASED!
Even greater evidence that proves guns are the wrong target is found in towns, cities, schools and shopping malls where law abiding, responsible citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons. In those areas where guns are the least restricted we see the statistic of murder and violent crime HAS DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY.
So if the RIGHT TARGET IS NOT GUNS, what is the right target?
Well, let's first look at the other targets being offered up... Violence in TV, Movies and Video Games.
If you are old enough to remember when America did not have kids walking into schools and killing their classmates with guns, then you remember when you could walk to school with your .22 rifle because you were on the school's rifle team, and prop your rifle up against the cabinet in the back of your classroom. You also likely remember the TV shows and movies you watched as a kid, as well as the games you played with all the other kids...
You watched westerns and war movies that had lots of killing in them. You played Cops and Robbers, Cowboys and Indians.
Remember those games? If you had the money, you had toy cap guns to use and if you didn't have the money you made toy weapons out of sticks or whatever you could fashion to look like a Tommy Gun or lever action rifle or bow and arrow. And yes, you killed the bad guy every chance you could get. And yes, every now and then someone you shot said you didn't shoot him and it might lead to an argument, a wrestling match or a few punches thrown to settle it. BUT YOU NEVER, EVER THOUGHT OF GRABBING THE REAL GUN that was unlocked and readily accessible in your closet at home, and taking it to school to shoot your classmates.
The TV, movie industry, and video game industry has placed warning labels and age restrictions on violent shows and games, but it has not made a difference in mass shootings. WHY? Because such restrictions, were the WRONG TARGET!
Had that step of restricting violent media been the right target, we would have seen a positive change, a decrease in mass shootings, and we have not.
WHY have we NOT seen a change in mass shootings after restricting violent media from our youth? Because kids and young adults KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between a violent TV show, movie or video game and real life, just as you and I did 40 or more years ago when we played, Cops and Robbers, Cowboys and Indians, and GI Joe.
So that leaves improving mental health care as the only remaining target that has been talked about as a solution to stop mass shootings. Believe it or not, lawmakers are suggesting the cause of these mass shootings is the inability of the State to involuntarily commit people who show signs of mental illness!
Do you see the inherent insanity in such a target? With a government already gone wild in stripping freedoms and privacy after 9/11, now there are actually lawmakers talking about increasing the power of the government to involuntarily commit (that means against your will) citizens to a mental institution! Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?
These are the same lawmakers who champion gun control laws and banning violent media content as the solution to stop mass shootings. They say that due to lack of funding, we have released so many "crazy" people from mental institution into the streets, which has caused the increase in mass shootings.
Really? How many mass shooters have been homeless, mental derelicts who lacked a psychiatrist treating them and prescribing them medication? NOT ONE.
So if the RIGHT TARGET to stop mass shootings is NOT GUNS, and it is NOT VIOLENT MEDIA, and it is NOT MORE MENTAL HEATLH CARE, then WHAT IS IT?
To find the RIGHT TARGET look to see what CHANGES took place in society when mass shootings first began and what has increased in society directly and proportionally to the increase in mass shootings, even during the same time when strong actions and restrictions against guns and violent media were being implemented to stop the mass shootings.
The answer, the common denominator, the RIGHT TARGET in the ever increasing number of mass shootings was and continued to be the creation of strong, mind altering, psychiatric drugs by the pharmaceutical companies and their systematic pushing of these drugs to our children and youth through our public school system. These drugs create the monsters who are killing their parents, teachers and schoolmates.
I recognized psych drugs being pushed on our youth as the right target after the Columbine shootings. I stated it then and I have stated it after every mass shooting since and guess what, EVERY SHOOTER has been under psychiatric care, taking these powerful, mind altering drugs that are scientifically proven to create homicidal and suicidal urges in those being prescribed these drugs!
It is the RIGHT TARGET. Ban the prescription and distribution of these strong, mind altering drugs and as a society we will not have drug induced assassins killing innocent people.
Of course to do so, would take multi-billions of dollars in ridiculous profits from the pharmaceutical companies who through their relentless "lobbying" in Washington, DC have managed to not only stay in business when all evidence points at their product as the root cause of these mass shootings, they also convinced Congress years ago to pass legislation allowing the blatant advertising of antidepressant drugs on TV, radio, Internet, newspapers and magazines.
Now you understand one of the reasons why members of Congress, who receive huge political contributions from the pharmaceutical industry, avoid attacking the RIGHT TARGET, psych drugs, and continue to point fingers at the wrong target... your guns.
If we truly want to stop mass shootings, we have to ban the prescription and distribution of these strong, mind altering drugs and as a society we will not have drug induced assassins killing innocent people. At the same time, we must strengthen those aspects of society that have statistically provided a positive reduction in violent crime. Namely, allow the law abiding responsible citizenry to carry concealed weapons to protect against mass shootings.
New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles... the big cities, with the strictest gun control have the highest murder and violent crime rates. Allow law abiding, responsible citizen to be trained to carry a concealed weapon and those same cities with the highest murder and crime rates will see an immediate and permanent reduction in violent crime and murder as all the other towns and cities across America have seen when they allowed their citizens to carry concealed weapons.
I have been preaching this for years. Direct our lawmakers to the RIGHT TARGET. IT'S NOT GUNS!
Others are now seeing it too. Help spread the word.

 

[Jack]

double post, sorry...

 

[Larry L.]

Oh, shuddup, Jack! That's waaaaaaaaaaay to much factual info for some people to process...not to mention accept!

 

[Jack]

Larry, that was my last "shot"!

 

[Larry L.]

LOL!

'Slacker'!

 

[Jack]

LOL!

'Slacker'!

From an old "Lifer" to a "Slacker" ain't too bad! Still looking down at the dirt!

 

[Larry L.]

Well, I'm still at a loss to know who said what, in what context, nor what internet site the report he quoted came from with regard to Mr. Craik's "we need more guns" post, so I Googled what appears to be the genesis of it: the Fox news poll he mentioned. This is what came up:

Fox News poll: Twice as many favor more guns over banning guns to reduce crime | Fox News

Turns out (surprise, surprise) that what was actually mentioned was this:

"Nearly twice as many VOTERS say there would be less violent crime if more law-abiding Americans owned guns, THAN IF GUNS WERE BANNED".

'Not quite the connotation Mr. Craik came up with, is it.

And then there's this little pearl of wisdom:

"Majorities of gun owners (81 percent), non-gun owners (58 percent), Democrats (58 percent), independents (72 percent) and Republicans (85 percent) say the people who do these kinds of things “will always find the guns” to commit violent acts."

IOW, further infringement on the gun rights of law-abiding people will not prevent crooks and loons from getting guns.

 

[Jim Craik]

Jack,

The US has the third largest population in the world, There is no doubt that there are lots of folks with mental and emotional problems, there are also lots of folks on all sorts of drugs.

Your list proves that gun owning Americans are totaly unable to keep guns out of the hands of troubled folks and people die daily!

Jack, since we can't get rid of trouble folks and we are unable to keep guns out of their hands, the only answer is to severly limit the number and types of guns available.

Now this will take time, but as guns become fewer and fewer, and the consequences of being caught with one get harsher, their street value will go up and their availability will go down.

The sooner we start the sooner the slaughter will slow!

 

[Jack]

Jim,
I totally agree with some of your post, and respectfully disagree with some of your post.

Nuff said..

 

[Larry L.]

Jack, since we can't get rid of trouble folks and we are unable to keep guns out of their hands, the only answer is to severly limit the number and types of guns available.

...and it therefore follows that, since we can't seem to keep cars out of the hands of thieves - especially the carjacker variety - we ought to limit the number and types of cars available. Not only that, but we ought to prosecute & fine anyone whose car is stolen.

Come on, sir. Guns and gun owners aren't the problem. Criminals and LOONS are the problem.

 

[Jim Craik]

Larry,

You continually bring that argument up, it was a stupid argument then and its a stupid argument now.

I'll explain it one more time, Cars, curbs, bricks, knives, baseball bats, hammers, candlesticks and chopsticks, when used as intended have a safe, useful purpose and function.

Guns when used as intended only kill, intimadate and destroy.

Come on, sir. Guns and gun ownersaren't the problem. Criminals and LOONS are the problem.

Larry, you said that, I submit that the problem is "Criminals and LOONS" with guns. If gun owners could keep their guns away from "Criminals and LOONS", we would not be having this conversation.

 

[Larry L.]

You continually bring that argument up, it was a stupid argument then and its a stupid argument now.

You consider any argument in opposition to your point of view to be "stupid".

If gun owners could keep their guns away from "Criminals and LOONS", we would not be having this conversation.

How exactly would you propose they do that, sir? Should gun owners stay home 24/7 and stand guard over their guns? Or maybe hire security guards to keep an eye on them so they can leave home? What if a security guard steals 'em? (Ken Bianchi was a security guard, remember?) I would remind you that even BANK VAULTS are not emmune to theft. Now, if thieves can loot from them............

No. The problem is not gun owners. The problem IS crooks and loons.

 

[Danimal W]

Larry,

You continually bring that argument up, it was a stupid argument then and its a stupid argument now.

I'll explain it one more time, Cars, curbs, bricks, knives, baseball bats, hammers, candlesticks and chopsticks, when used as intended have a safe, useful purpose and function.

Guns when used as intended only kill, intimadate and destroy.



Larry, you said that, I submit that the problem is "Criminals and LOONS" with guns. If gun owners could keep their guns away from "Criminals and LOONS", we would not be having this conversation.

Mr. Craik,

You did not take into account that OUR GOVERNMENT PURPOSELY put 1500+ guns in the hands of criminals during the failed Operation Fast and Furious. As you will recall, most of these guns were lost and not recovered. One of the very few that was recovered was used to kill a US Border patrol officer.

So all this talk of limiting law abiding citizens, when yet the United States Department of Justice violated 18 USC § 922 (d) knowingly transfer firearms to a prohibited person, which would lead to the use or possession of firearm in relation to or furtherance of a drug felony or other federal crime of violence, 18 USC § 924 (c).

So...it seems to me that some of the loons providing guns to criminals are the same loons that say they want to make the country safer...

 

[Jim Craik]

Danimal, yes, I agree, guns are for killing and are a very real problem!

But, you are wrong, it was not the Justice dept, it was the ATF who was involved with this. As you know, the ATF is all screwed up, the Republicans added a rider to the Partiot Bill, saying that the Director of the ATF must be confirmed. Since then, at the behest of the NRA, they have refused to confirm ANY Directors, even BushII's nonminees were denied as too RESTRICTIVE TO GUN OWNERS. Perhaps if we had a director in charge of the ATF this might not have happened.

Danimal, I see that you agree, making guns available to anyone is wrong, should be a major crime and the people involved should be prosicuted.

Thanks, you have once again pointed out the complete inability to keep guns from folks with bad intentions, we must remove the guns!

You seem to be a convert to the guns are bad side, congratulations!

 

[Jack]

The BATFE (as it is now called) come directly under the USDOJ, and Holder...

 

[Larry L.]

But, you are wrong, it was not the Justice dept, it was the ATF who was involved with this.

News flash - the ATF is part of the Justice Dept.

Good grief...

Danimal, I see that you AGREE(!), making guns AVAILABLE TO ANYONE is wrong, should be a major crimed and the people involved should be prosicuted.

Are you the one who selectively edited the Zimmerman 9-1-1 tape for NBC as well?