Israel and Gaza?
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
Or we could kill for no belief like Russia and China. Man just gets off on snuffing out someone else's life. It's the ultimate control!
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Apparently, all of those rockets have killed exactly ONE civilian in Israel.
The Israelis have killed thousands of men, women and children who have nothing to do with Hamas other than Hamas is simply there.
Waht I see is one side being very successful at making sure the other side is dead, while sufferning no civilian casaulties of its own.
No, it's not simple. Thinking it is is stupid.
I see. So, in order to make things more 'fair' as far as you're concerned, Israel has to allow ITS people to be killed in equal numbers? Oh, now that makes perfect sense, 'dunnit'.
'As I queried before - exactly whose fault is that really???
...as usual, you're again calling others who see things differently "stupid".
It must be a 'lawyer' thing. I was a jury member in a criminal trail last week. The defense lawyer tried to tell US (the jurors) that the only fair and responsible verdict WE could render was to find her client not guilty (never mind the fact all the evidence said otherwise). SHE dared not call us "stupid" if we decided otherwise...but, that is what she inferred. She came out on the losing end of that argument...just like you will on this one.
Lemme ask you something: If someone was shooting at you from the house across the street, would you shoot back...or go hide, call 9-1-1 and let LEOs do it for you? Well, there are no LEOs for Israel to call. You might keep that in mind, sir.
Edit: Bear in mind as well that Hamas DELIBERATELY TARGETS ISRAELI CIVILIANS and celebrates in the streets every time they're sucessful. Israel does everything it can to avoid killing civilians (specifics outlined before) and apologizes when it happens.
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Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
If Israel does everything to avoid killing women and children, it sucks pretty bad at the effort.
I really think this whole situation is simplified for teh average conservative American white male around the theme of self defense, as you highlight above. To you, if someone shoots at you, you have an unlimited right to unleash a fullisade of whatever the fuck you want on your aggressor and the public. It's "mah rights" given to you by God or some such nonsense.
But applying that antiquated view of modern life and living with others to this particular situation, what's really going on is that a very small number of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and in a city of what, 200,000? are firing rockets into Israel unsuccessful. Basically, like your neighbor's kid firing a slingshot at your door and pissing you off.
What does a rational adult do in that situation? They go outside and tell the kid to stop. And if he doesn't, and is doing no harm, well, sometimes we just have to live with that crap, especially if we are the asshole neighbor no one likes.
You seem, however, to think it appropriate to go outside and unleash a fullisade of semiautomatic rifle fire on the kid, your neighbors and anyone else who gets hit in the "firefight" (which is mostly one side and in reality created by YOU).
Force equivalency matters. Hamas is not a real threat to Israel. What they are doing is wrong. the Arab world knows it and is not supporting it. But, Israel's response is not to be a good neighbor, and work with its neighbors to stop the kid from doing this, but rather to kill thousands of innocent women and children in the neighborhood.
Not the right move.
And that is where you lose the argument.
I really think this whole situation is simplified for teh average conservative American white male around the theme of self defense, as you highlight above. To you, if someone shoots at you, you have an unlimited right to unleash a fullisade of whatever the fuck you want on your aggressor and the public. It's "mah rights" given to you by God or some such nonsense.
But applying that antiquated view of modern life and living with others to this particular situation, what's really going on is that a very small number of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and in a city of what, 200,000? are firing rockets into Israel unsuccessful. Basically, like your neighbor's kid firing a slingshot at your door and pissing you off.
What does a rational adult do in that situation? They go outside and tell the kid to stop. And if he doesn't, and is doing no harm, well, sometimes we just have to live with that crap, especially if we are the asshole neighbor no one likes.
You seem, however, to think it appropriate to go outside and unleash a fullisade of semiautomatic rifle fire on the kid, your neighbors and anyone else who gets hit in the "firefight" (which is mostly one side and in reality created by YOU).
Force equivalency matters. Hamas is not a real threat to Israel. What they are doing is wrong. the Arab world knows it and is not supporting it. But, Israel's response is not to be a good neighbor, and work with its neighbors to stop the kid from doing this, but rather to kill thousands of innocent women and children in the neighborhood.
Not the right move.
And that is where you lose the argument.
Someone on this forum once said you should never question a post with the insulting line you must be joking. However, you must be joking unless you think the UN observers western journalists and documented evidence from ex Israeli soldiers to the contary is all lying.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Jeff,. what would you think would be an appropriate response?
It seems to me that the bad actor here is Hamas, who ought to be rubbed out. I am not the only one who thinks so- frankly, the Arab governments in the Middle East think so as well, which is why no one except Iran is supporting Hamas. That's the way it's been all along.
Essentially Hamas is fighting Iran's war against Israel for Iran, and sacrificing its own civilians to do so.
I think the Israelis have other options- options other than bombarding Gaza. After all, if ONE Israeli citizen has been killed by all those rockets fired by Hamas, arguably Hamas isn't much of a threat and Israel can consider other options.
The tunnels are different. They ARE a real threat and maybe Israel ought to have acted sooner.
I am as critical of Israel as anyone. I think their response has been brutal and disproportionate. But you have to ask yourself WHO started this business? It began with three Israeli kids being captured and executed by Hamas or Hamas sympathizers. It escalated with three Israelis kidnaping, torturing and murdering an Arab boy. And then Hamas started shooting rockets.
Cynically killing their own people by proxy to gain world sympathy is exactly the strategy you'd expect from a bunch of professional losers like Hamas. It isn't working. Both sides are losing- an interesting proposition in a war where the military superiority is so one-sided.
It seems to me that the bad actor here is Hamas, who ought to be rubbed out. I am not the only one who thinks so- frankly, the Arab governments in the Middle East think so as well, which is why no one except Iran is supporting Hamas. That's the way it's been all along.
Essentially Hamas is fighting Iran's war against Israel for Iran, and sacrificing its own civilians to do so.
I think the Israelis have other options- options other than bombarding Gaza. After all, if ONE Israeli citizen has been killed by all those rockets fired by Hamas, arguably Hamas isn't much of a threat and Israel can consider other options.
The tunnels are different. They ARE a real threat and maybe Israel ought to have acted sooner.
I am as critical of Israel as anyone. I think their response has been brutal and disproportionate. But you have to ask yourself WHO started this business? It began with three Israeli kids being captured and executed by Hamas or Hamas sympathizers. It escalated with three Israelis kidnaping, torturing and murdering an Arab boy. And then Hamas started shooting rockets.
Cynically killing their own people by proxy to gain world sympathy is exactly the strategy you'd expect from a bunch of professional losers like Hamas. It isn't working. Both sides are losing- an interesting proposition in a war where the military superiority is so one-sided.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
As far as Israel doing "everything it can" to avoid killing civilians, no, I don't believe that. I think they are trying, but not very hard, and the evidence on the ground is all too clear on that.
But war is messy and horrible. The idea of a "surgical strike" was dreamed up by some fool in the White House who wasn't a surgeon and isn't a real military person either. They are living in some kind of political dream where you can push a button and some kind of "smart bomb" flies over and just kills the person you want to get rid of. What a bunch of crap. No weapon can be smarter than the person who fires it. The idea of clean war is about as believable as the idea that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.
But war is messy and horrible. The idea of a "surgical strike" was dreamed up by some fool in the White House who wasn't a surgeon and isn't a real military person either. They are living in some kind of political dream where you can push a button and some kind of "smart bomb" flies over and just kills the person you want to get rid of. What a bunch of crap. No weapon can be smarter than the person who fires it. The idea of clean war is about as believable as the idea that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Jim a good question. If I had the answer, I'd have a Nobel....lol..
First and foremost, I support Israel. They have a right to exist, and the have carved out a remarkable country out of essentially nothing. They are a democracy, for the most part, and have endured in a way most nations can only dream of.
However, that does not give them a right to indiscrimately kill civilians in Gaza or the West Bank.
War is messy, I agree, but here, with the rocket strikes doing next to nothing, and the tunnels dangerous by similarly ineffective, I just see a completley disproporionate response to the problem. Most Arab nations seem to be turning the corner on Hamas, and since that is where their funding comes from, that is the long term solution.
Have Israel work with its neighbors to make HAMAS the bad kid on the block.
There are moderate elements in Palestinian leadership. Fund and support them. And be serious, without condition, on granting Palestinians a true, independent state on the West Bank, even if that state is armed and potentially hostile.
First and foremost, I support Israel. They have a right to exist, and the have carved out a remarkable country out of essentially nothing. They are a democracy, for the most part, and have endured in a way most nations can only dream of.
However, that does not give them a right to indiscrimately kill civilians in Gaza or the West Bank.
War is messy, I agree, but here, with the rocket strikes doing next to nothing, and the tunnels dangerous by similarly ineffective, I just see a completley disproporionate response to the problem. Most Arab nations seem to be turning the corner on Hamas, and since that is where their funding comes from, that is the long term solution.
Have Israel work with its neighbors to make HAMAS the bad kid on the block.
There are moderate elements in Palestinian leadership. Fund and support them. And be serious, without condition, on granting Palestinians a true, independent state on the West Bank, even if that state is armed and potentially hostile.
If you can't see the diff between a slingshot fired at one's door and rockets as well as suicide bombers blowing up in ones face...AND you believe "rational adults" just have to "live with that crap" - I can't help you.
"IS DOING NO HARM"???????!!!!! Good gallopin' krymuny! You cannot be serious!!!
BTW, just how many times have "rational adults" already told "the kid" to stop? Has that worked? Has "the kid" ever "stopped"???
Do you see what a mess you make of your 'argument' when you equate someone SHOOTING AT YOU WITH A FIREARM from across the street with a kid "shooting" a slingshot?
.
In the same sense Ebola isn't a threat to Africa.
Gee...what a BIG difference THAT has made.
Oooooooooooooooh, so, that accusation cannot be made re: Hamas - just Israel. ISRAEL is the one who's been the unprovoked aggressor. ISRAEL is the one who's always been sendng mortars, missiles and suicide bombers into Gaza. Dang! And here I've always thought 'twas the other way 'round!
(Incidently, I thought your sly implication that Israel is an "asshole neighbor" was an expecially nice touch. :thumbsup: [sarcasm])
Dave Hood
Lifetime Supporter
I think Jeff makes the better points here. The situation is an incredible mess. I've worked in both Israel and a number of Arab countries in the region. Hamas knows that by provoking Israel into acts that kill civilians it will gain sympathy in the media. It is absolutely sacrificing the Palestinian people for its cause since it cannot win a military war against Israel. But Israel is not the aggressor in this conflict. Had Hamas not fired dozens of rockets into Israel every day, this would not have escalated. Yes, only one Israeli citizen has been killed. But until you spend time there you don't realize the fear and disruption of life in Israel under constant threat from the rocket attacks.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Sounds to me you are supporting Larry and Jim not Jeff?
Where did the information that only one Israeli civilian has been killed come from?
My information is at least 28 have been killed and many hundreds injured.
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Then, what else would you suggest they (Israel) should do that they're evidently not doing now in your view?
Geez Jeff. It's not for the lack of trying, over 1700 rockets since July 1st, and then they put the Palestinians in harms way by hiding behind them. And Hamas has pictured proof to sway the media, they are smart and it's working at the expense of the Palestinian people, hell, it's working with you. Hamas breaks it's own cease fire. What exactly would you have Israel do? If Mexico was lobbing rockets into the US and we were shooting them down, should we retaliate and make them stop even if they were hiding behind Mexican people that we forewarn? Israel is not the bad guy here, Hamas is.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Larry, your question is a fair one. Frankly I don't think Israel needs to be destroying Gaza at the rate it is. I don't think they need to be dropping bombs on schools and hospitals as they are. I think they are playing into Hamas' hands by doing this. A good argument for doing less of it is that they are doing what Hamas wants- exactly what they want. And why let your military strategy be guided by your enemies who are a bunch of zealots and professional losers? The fact is that the Palestinians are bad enough at anything but terrorism that they couldn't win this war even if their arms were equal to Israel's.
What Israel has done here is to legitimatize the Palestinians in a way that the Palestinians could have never done themselves. Honestly, Israel would have done better to concentrate on destroying the tunnels, which I think are more of a threat than the rockets, and hold off on bombarding Gaza. That's not an easy thing to do, but it would have created a great deal of sympathy for the Israelis, and even more pressure on Hamas to cut out their usual shit.
Everybody in this conflict has a history, and the history that follows Israel into this war is this: the Israelis are determined not to be pushed around ever again, after the appalling loss of Jewish lives (and others) in the German Holocaust. Well, it's good to stick up for yourselves, but when you can be manipulated into killing women and children and doctors and nurses and teachers, maybe your strategy of retaliation isn't helping you much.
After all, five or six dozen Israeli soldiers have been killed, too. Those numbers would be far less- if any- if the Israeli army had not attacked Gaza. I'm certain most of those lives if not all of them were lost in combat operations.
I agree that Hamas IS the bad guy. What is ironic is that Israel is helping them achieve their aim- and Iran's aims as well. It's a sad business.
What Israel has done here is to legitimatize the Palestinians in a way that the Palestinians could have never done themselves. Honestly, Israel would have done better to concentrate on destroying the tunnels, which I think are more of a threat than the rockets, and hold off on bombarding Gaza. That's not an easy thing to do, but it would have created a great deal of sympathy for the Israelis, and even more pressure on Hamas to cut out their usual shit.
Everybody in this conflict has a history, and the history that follows Israel into this war is this: the Israelis are determined not to be pushed around ever again, after the appalling loss of Jewish lives (and others) in the German Holocaust. Well, it's good to stick up for yourselves, but when you can be manipulated into killing women and children and doctors and nurses and teachers, maybe your strategy of retaliation isn't helping you much.
After all, five or six dozen Israeli soldiers have been killed, too. Those numbers would be far less- if any- if the Israeli army had not attacked Gaza. I'm certain most of those lives if not all of them were lost in combat operations.
I agree that Hamas IS the bad guy. What is ironic is that Israel is helping them achieve their aim- and Iran's aims as well. It's a sad business.
The other thing that is not publicized is the number of own goals Hamas has, well over a 100 including schools and a hospital that it then blames on Israel.
What "sympathy for the Israelis", Doc? For that matter, what pressure on Hamas? 'Way I see it, neither has ever really been the case regardless of any particular situation or action taken by either side. It's always been 'Palestinians = victims, Israelis = villains' no matter what.
The idea that rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers doing their thing should just be considered part of the 'overhead costs' one pays for living in Israel (a daily 'nuisance' really) seems absurd to me. If that attitude / 'strategy' were adopted by Israel - and therefore Hamas knew it would not pay a price for doing those things - it would rain rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers in Israel daily.
Would you be willing to just accept and 'put up with' something like that?
'Me no' think so.
'Think I'm going to take a little 'vacay' (it should be spelled 'vaycay' IMHO) from this thread for a while...
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
It appears, from news reports this morning, that although United Nations people are communicating with the IDF, that other elements of the IDF are not in the loop- or ARE in the loop and choosing to ignore the information that they are given. The result is that the Israeli artillery shelled a school in Gaza that was housing refugees from the war, and that more noncombatants died.
It's impossible to ignore this situation. There's no question that Hamas started this phase of hostilities, and there's also no question that the Israelis have responded out of proportion and in the wrong ways to it.
Larry, I don't agree with you that if Israel didn't respond this way, it would rain rockets etc in Israel every day. To put it another way, the current situation is killing both Palestinians AND Israelis, although it is killing a lot more Palestinians. Like I said, it is a war that both sides are losing. I think it's time for someone to do something different, and as the side with more options, I hope the Israelis do it.
It's impossible to ignore this situation. There's no question that Hamas started this phase of hostilities, and there's also no question that the Israelis have responded out of proportion and in the wrong ways to it.
Larry, I don't agree with you that if Israel didn't respond this way, it would rain rockets etc in Israel every day. To put it another way, the current situation is killing both Palestinians AND Israelis, although it is killing a lot more Palestinians. Like I said, it is a war that both sides are losing. I think it's time for someone to do something different, and as the side with more options, I hope the Israelis do it.
Pat
Supporter
Just suppose Israel was to immediately cease fire, pull out of Gaza and stop destroying the tunnel complexes. What would the Hamas response be?
There appears to be two durable solutions, Hamas destroys Israel and all the Jews according to its charter or Israel destroys the Hamas ability to wage war.
Some favor the former and I prefer the latter.
There appears to be two durable solutions, Hamas destroys Israel and all the Jews according to its charter or Israel destroys the Hamas ability to wage war.
Some favor the former and I prefer the latter.
