McLaren replica build base on a Manta

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
I brought the frame back from the powdercoater today. Now I can start finishing all the roughed-in fabricated parts that bolt onto this frame so that they look somewhat aesthetically pleasing.

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That looks to be a great, clean, base to start assembling onto, Terry. It will look better with each section/piece you attach. Keep at it, and keep the progress photos coming.
 
The power coating looks good, whats the finish like up close?? You will be happy to start the long assembly process and it will start to look like a real car in no time.
keep the photos coming. Cheers Leon
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
A little progress to date. I've fnally gathered all the suspension components and placed them in their proper place. I've also discovered that POR-15 is a lot more durable and chip resistant than powdercoating, but a lot more trouble than sending the part of to be powder coated.
Took the removable radiator core support to the powdercoater today, so that framing can be boxed in and finished out next month

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Looking good Ox!
POR 15 and Rust Bullet are really good alternatives to powdercoating and are easily
repaired should chips occur. I have used Rust Bullet on the underside of my floors.
Can't take it off with a chisel!
 
Terry,

The chassis is coming along nicely! I've been following your "M8" Manta build with great interest.
Question - mind sharing your formula for getting in the ballpark on your front/rear spring rates?

I'm also doing a custom chassis build and agonizing over what spring rates to use. Every book has a different way to calculate it - and they all give different rates! Looking for other opinions before I start dropping the $$$ for springs.
Thanks,
Jeff
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
I may not be using the correct rate myself, so I don't feel qualified to guide you. What I did do was:
Calculate the sprung weight at each corner. In this example I'm using 300 lbs for the front driver's side wheel.
Then I measured the angle from vertical of the shock at the static ride height (in my example, it will be 20º from vertical.
Then I measure two lengths on the lower control arm: the distance of the inner pivot center to the lower spring perch center, and the total distance between the inner pivot center to the outer pivot (center of ball joint). These two distances provide a ratio that will be used to provide a shock movement ratio. For example, if the lower shock is mounted exactly half way along the lower arm between the inner and outer pivot, then this ratio is 2:1 (shock compresses .5" for every 1" the wheel moves up), which when squared, means that whatever spring rate I choose (see further down the explaination) in an assumed 1:1 movement ratio, must be the square of this actual (2:1) ratio, or 4...4 times the 1:1 ratio (I'll tie all of this together in a minute). The angle of the shock now must also be factored into the equation. The sine of 20º is roughly .94. Which means the shock will move .94" for every 1" the wheel moves (as a function of the angle only). This must also be squared, so that now my spring rate (inverse of .88 is 1.13, or 13 percent) must also be multiplied by 113% on top of the 400% percent earlier, or now I must have a spring rate that is 452% larger than an ideal 1:1 movement ratio.
So, I now have a movement ratio (considering shock location and angle) that can be used to modify the next chosen value:
Remember the 300 lb corner weight from before? In my particular situation, I would like the wheel to move no more than 3" from full droop (spring has no pressure, but is not loose in the perches either) to static ride height, which compresses the shock to just under half way. This means that assuming a 1:1 movement ratio, the spring would need to be 300 lbs / 3", or a 100 lb/inch spring. Since my movement ratio is NOT 1:1, but instead a combination of factors that resulted in a 452% increase, my spring rate must now be 452 lbs/inch springs (100 lb/inch * 452%). This sounds high, but it's because of the mounting geometry I used in this example.

In reality, my project's front suspension movement ratio, squared results in a spring rate that is 190% of a 1:1 ratio (because my shock is mounted just inside the lower ball joint (almost touches it)), which mean I would only use a spring that is about 200 lbs/in. BUT, the 3" compression from droop to static is a little soft for me, so I'm stiffening that up to a little over 2", which equates to a front spring rate of about 275, which is what I have on the car right now. Will it be too stiff or two weak? I won't know until I drive it, but these same calculation were used on another car I built, and they were pretty close.

The rear suspension will have about 50% more weight on the springs, but the angle of the shock is more upright, and the shock is attached even closer to the outer pivot center, which means a lot better or higher movement ratio, so I can use a 300 lb spring in the rear even though the weight is so much more (better geometry for supporting the weight of the car).

Long story short, movement ratio (which can be measured more easily on the car than all the calculations I've done) squared is the value used as a multiplier for a 1:1 ratio. Your personal preference for soft or hard suspension, how much stroke your shock has, and sprung corner weight will determine what that 1:1 rate will be before you apply the multiplier for the movement ratio.

Hope that helps.

Ox
 
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Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
On another note, the powder coater painted my latest pieces an record time:

Here is a shot of the removable core support and the rear bracing that will fit just over the engine, and hopefully, reduce any side to side movement of the upper rear suspension pickup points. I wanted to be able to use the core support as a jacking point, so it's a little more robust than necessary, but not too heavy. Aluminum panels will be attached later.

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The red tint shows the tubes used to reinforce the lateral (and some longitudinal) rigidity.

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Looking good Terry, and apologies if you have considered this. I am a bit worried about the U shaped brackets that form the attachment points for the inboard end of the top rear lateral suspemsion arms. The rearmost side of the brackets looks to be unsupported and brackets used like that on 7 style cars have failed by breaking just outboard of the attachment weld. Does the securing bolt go into a bush in the chassis member?

Maybe you have a gusset across the bottom of the bracket though, in which case ignore my comment.

Cheers

Fred W B
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Thanks for the concern Fred. The bolt actually goes all the way through the main member, so I could have left the outer tab completely off the frame, and left it single shear. For some reason I stuck this on in the hopes of a 1 1/2 shear :freak: would be better yet (since a double shear was going to take a lot of unneccessary work). Actually, it probably adds no strength whatsoever, but it's there now.
 
Thanks for the spring explanation Terry - it was very thorough! I think you meant cosine instead of sine in your notes? Otherwise I was able to work through the numbers. I know a lot if it comes from actually fitting springs and driving the car - but getting in the ballpark is at least a good start. The Rancho site also has what looks to be a pretty good spring rate calculator.
That front subframe looks good!
Cheers,
Jeff
 
I may not be using the correct rate myself, so I don't feel qualified to guide you. What I did do was:
Calculate the sprung weight at each corner. In this example I'm using 300 lbs for the front driver's side wheel.
Then I measured the angle from vertical of the shock at the static ride height (in my example, it will be 20º from vertical.
Then I measure two lengths on the lower control arm: the distance of the inner pivot center to the lower spring perch center, and the total distance between the inner pivot center to the outer pivot (center of ball joint). These two distances provide a ratio that will be used to provide a shock movement ratio. For example, if the lower shock is mounted exactly half way along the lower arm between the inner and outer pivot, then this ratio is 2:1 (shock compresses .5" for every 1" the wheel moves up), which when squared, means that whatever spring rate I choose (see further down the explaination) in an assumed 1:1 movement ratio, must be the square of this actual (2:1) ratio, or 4...4 times the 1:1 ratio (I'll tie all of this together in a minute). The angle of the shock now must also be factored into the equation. The sine of 20º is roughly .94. Which means the shock will move .94" for every 1" the wheel moves (as a function of the angle only). This must also be squared, so that now my spring rate (inverse of .88 is 1.13, or 13 percent) must also be multiplied by 113% on top of the 400% percent earlier, or now I must have a spring rate that is 452% larger than an ideal 1:1 movement ratio.
So, I now have a movement ratio (considering shock location and angle) that can be used to modify the next chosen value:
Remember the 300 lb corner weight from before? In my particular situation, I would like the wheel to move no more than 3" from full droop (spring has no pressure, but is not loose in the perches either) to static ride height, which compresses the shock to just under half way. This means that assuming a 1:1 movement ratio, the spring would need to be 300 lbs / 3", or a 100 lb/inch spring. Since my movement ratio is NOT 1:1, but instead a combination of factors that resulted in a 452% increase, my spring rate must now be 452 lbs/inch springs (100 lb/inch * 452%). This sounds high, but it's because of the mounting geometry I used in this example.

In reality, my project's front suspension movement ratio, squared results in a spring rate that is 190% of a 1:1 ratio (because my shock is mounted just inside the lower ball joint (almost touches it)), which mean I would only use a spring that is about 200 lbs/in. BUT, the 3" compression from droop to static is a little soft for me, so I'm stiffening that up to a little over 2", which equates to a front spring rate of about 275, which is what I have on the car right now. Will it be too stiff or two weak? I won't know until I drive it, but these same calculation were used on another car I built, and they were pretty close.

The rear suspension will have about 50% more weight on the springs, but the angle of the shock is more upright, and the shock is attached even closer to the outer pivot center, which means a lot better or higher movement ratio, so I can use a 300 lb spring in the rear even though the weight is so much more (better geometry for supporting the weight of the car).

Long story short, movement ratio (which can be measured more easily on the car than all the calculations I've done) squared is the value used as a multiplier for a 1:1 ratio. Your personal preference for soft or hard suspension, how much stroke your shock has, and sprung corner weight will determine what that 1:1 rate will be before you apply the multiplier for the movement ratio.

Hope that helps.

Ox

Here is a excel chart i did for my car. I had a local company winding the springs. This are the actual values of my car. For your car, just change the parameters in the yellow fields in the scematic drawings

TOM
 

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Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Thanks Tom. Question: I am unsure of the definition of "nominal spring rate" as used on the spreadsheet. I find that if test this by putting in dimensions that make the IR = 100%, and a straight up shock (90º), I get lost in finding what spring rate I should be looking for, other than one I would insert based on corner weight. Can you provide some insight?

Thanks,

Ox
 
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Terry, my rule of thumb has been (for a new, never run car) to start with springs that give me a wheel rate value around 30-35%( formula cars will be higher) of the loaded wheel weight on the scales. "modern" GT1/Trans Am chassis these days are closer to 90-100% of the wheel weight, but for me that's too stiff to learn a car. FWIW, my Fiero at 2150lbs,with a slightly shorter wheel base has 275lbs springs in front and 350lbs in the rear. I' can't give motion ratios right now as all my notes are down at the shop.
hope this helps,
Dave D.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
I know you cannot compare without looking at the specifics of the geometry, but my current springs are 275/350. Weight should sit very close to one ton (not tonne) when finished.
 
Hi Terry, the chassis is starting to look good. I was wondering what you have done for the gold color on your suspension arms, I quite like it. I have very little paint on my chassis but I have done the few steel parts in satan black but still thinking about what to do the suspension arms in. Keep up the good work. Cheers Leon
 
Thanks Tom. Question: I am unsure of the definition of "nominal spring rate" as used on the spreadsheet. I find that if test this by putting in dimensions that make the IR = 100%, and a straight up shock (90º), I get lost in finding what spring rate I should be looking for, other than one I would insert based on corner weight. Can you provide some insight?

Thanks,

Ox

Terry

nomimal spring rate is the rate of the spring itself like specified.

i tested it also. So if i put the same values in pivot distance and shock mounting distance and 90° on the shock, the wheelrate is the same as the springrate. Seems to be correct or ?

with 90° of the shock the nominal spring rate becomes the very same value effective spring rate.

I defined my spring rate following the leftover wheel travel at ride height. which on my car is about 3" till block. Than i figured a corner weigth of about 20%(40%/2) for the front which will be around 460 lbs. and rear of about 690 lbs ( car weight estimated at 2300 lbs). So followed more or less that values which Dave posted for GT1 cars

i tried to achieve a wheelrate similar to that with the swaybars in the softest position ( front app 500 lbs/inch, rear app 640 lbs), which should need a bump acceleration of 3g to full block, which should happen pretty rarely . I also made it this way to be able to use mainly the range of my rear adjustable swaybar ( front is adjustable as well, but if possible i would like to keep it on the softest position to add grip) to influence over- understeer .

Will see if this works out.

TOM
 
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