More Global Cooling/Warming/Change hoax.

[Mark]

Bang on Keith! Water is the key.

Jeff claims I have " a very limited understanding of how modern electrical grids work". Well, whatever Jeff. You fail to recognise the Over-all question and be able to get your head out of just the portion of the debate that directly effects your own back yard.

So your suggestion seems to be to have enough wind turbines everywhere, to be in the right place at the right time and then have a grid, capable of connecting all places together at once?

Pie in the sky! We have had a fully interconnected grid since we have had a grid. You have a shit load of square miles to cover. Good luck funding that, JUST for wind! What a naive idea. The real world isn't a Hollywood movie where anything conceivable is plausible Jeff.

But then what do I know, I'm not a Lawyer!

 

[Mark]

By the way,

Why hasn't the power of water been fully developed already? We've known about it for centuries!

My guess, is that it would be solved/developed too quickly and too easily. I wonder who stands to lose out should anyone allow that to happen?

 

[Keith]

By the way,

Why hasn't the power of water been fully developed already? We've known about it for centuries!

My guess, is that it would be solved/developed too quickly and too easily. I wonder who stands to lose out should anyone allow that to happen?

Exactement mon ami....

The first house in the world powered by hydro-electric power invented by one of the greatest engineers ever - Lord Armstrong at Cragside House Northumberland. It is still working today and is a work of engineering genius.

But, you wouldn't know where it's mysterious power came from. All is quiet and serene...

 

[John Milmont]

That depends on what you read. If you read coal industry (and I'm not opposed to coal, it's an important part of base load generation) studies they'll make absurd claims about hidden costs in wind that don't exist.

You can start here:

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Installed cost of wind is about the same as coal, in the middle of the various types of natural gas generation, and less than nuke (which I also think is an important energy source).

The anti wind stuff is crazy. Wind energy is cheap, and fills a good niche in covering peak load requirements in a grid. Most think that modern grids can operate with 20-30% of their power coming from wind, numbers that some of our European friends have already hit.

Now, solar is a different story. The storage tech just isn't there and the per kilowatt hour cost is through the roof. Just not viable at this point.

Jeff, If you look at the data on that page, it gives wind a capacity factor of 34%. The capacity factor is how much actual power output a power plant can produce over time.

Although 34% is possible, it seems a little high. According to Wikipedia, the German nation-wide average wind power capacity factor over all of 2012 was just under 17.5% just to put things in perspective. It all depends on where the windfarms are located and so on, but a capacity factor of around 17% is probably more realistic.

If you redo all the calculations with a capacity factor of 17, things don't look so good anymore....

Like you said, it all depends on what you read.

There is a town here in Illinois called Dekalb which has a huge windfarm, when i drive by it (admittedly rare), I always notice very few of the turbines actually turning. I would like to know what the capacity factor of that windfarm is...

 

[Bob Fechter]

We've had very productive hydroelectric dams in the US for a very long time, but thanks to "THEY," they are endangered as well;

Radical environmentalists push to destroy dams to reopen salmon spawning habitat

 

[Keith]

That's a bit extreme - we have those kind of activists here too but only (so far) the animal rights militia (I kid you not - they use bombs).

To be fair, we've had the same issues here with spillways, dams and such but fortunately, our most committed environmentalists (which actually embraces more of the UK population than you might think, carry this task out manually, believe it or not instead of destruction.

But, you know what they say - if it happens in the USA, watch out - we're next.

 

[Bob Fechter]

What they'll do is say "Lake A only has 1,000 salmon. There's only 1,000 Lake A salmon in the entire world, so of course they are endangered." That's how they come up with a lot of their endangered species. You see, the activists join government organizations like Fish and Game and then enact their own set of rules, bypassing the will of the people.

 

[Mark]

Don't forget the Lawyers they all hire. Good men like Jeff I shouldn't wonder. Just to spin th sh!te out of it and amaze and dazzle us all into blind acceptance of their won very special facts.

 

[Bob Fechter]

You have to wonder why someone, who makes a living out of arguing with people all day, would want to bother poor old bob.

 

[Jeff Young]

Jeff, If you look at the data on that page, it gives wind a capacity factor of 34%. The capacity factor is how much actual power output a power plant can produce over time.

Although 34% is possible, it seems a little high. According to Wikipedia, the German nation-wide average wind power capacity factor over all of 2012 was just under 17.5% just to put things in perspective. It all depends on where the windfarms are located and so on, but a capacity factor of around 17% is probably more realistic.

If you redo all the calculations with a capacity factor of 17, things don't look so good anymore....

Like you said, it all depends on what you read.

There is a town here in Illinois called Dekalb which has a huge windfarm, when i drive by it (admittedly rare), I always notice very few of the turbines actually turning. I would like to know what the capacity factor of that windfarm is...

No -- actual wind factor capacities are in the 20-40% range, higher end of that spectrum in the US. Germany, other than the North Sea, isn't a good spot for wind.

UMass study here: http://www.umass.edu/windenergy/pub...Sheets/RERL_Fact_Sheet_2a_Capacity_Factor.pdf

I'm all good with reasonable critiques of various forms of power. Like I said before, right now, solar doesn't make much sense on a per kilowatt basis. Claiming wind doesn't though is just flat out wrong.


I drove by a windfarm near Palm Springs. 100 turbines, all turning. Does that mean my obersvation applies to all wind farms and we are looking at a 100% capacity rate?

 

[Jeff Young]

You have to wonder why someone, who makes a living out of arguing with people all day, would want to bother poor old bob.

Uh, mostly because you post a lot of pretty ridiculous right wing nonsense and you clearly need some moral and factual direction in your life. Glad to be of service!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Uh, mostly because you post a lot of pretty ridiculous right wing nonsense and you clearly need some moral and factual direction in your life. Glad to be of service!

All Pro Bono too.

 

[Bob Fechter]

Just another brick in the wall;


"The USA in the last 12 months has seen the fewest number of tornadoes since at least 1954, and the death tolls from the dangerous storms have dropped dramatically since 2011."

Tornado activity hits 60-year low

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Remember all those islands in the Pacific that were going to be inundated by the rising sea level caused by global warming according to Al Gore and his mates?
Well they are all still here and their inhabitants are alive and well!
How come?:stunned:

 

Are they Pete? As a person who has met a number of I-Kiriabti and with a partner who has been there to work on fresh water systems, I can say that they are beginning to experience real problems with sea level.

 

[Larry L.]

Regarding wind farms, percentages of output, efficiency, effectiveness in supplying a power grid, etc., etc., etc.; if, after investing bazillions of HIS OWN MONEY (not the taxpayers') into wind farms, no lesser man than T. Boone Pickens has thrown in the towel regarding same because HE SAYS THEY AREN'T A COST EFFECTIVE NOR A PRACTICAL/RELIABLE SOURCE OF ENERGY, and he admits he's "...lost (his) a--" in the wind farm business - I'm going to throw in on HIS side. He's actually been there and DONE that for real. He knows from experience what he's talking about.

The non-biased, non agenda-driven reality of the market place will usually expose and eliminate hype-driven, pie-in-the-sky hoaxes in pretty darn short order...as it seems to have already done in the wind power 'bidnuss'.


...now I suppose we'll see someone post a crab pot full of charts, graphs and statistics (as well as an economics treatise or two by Paul Krugman) purporting to prove that the likes of T. Boone and I are completely clueless loons.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Are they Pete? As a person who has met a number of I-Kiriabti and with a partner who has been there to work on fresh water systems, I can say that they are beginning to experience real problems with sea level.

Also according to the IPCC. $5.5 million from the U.S. $ 1.5 million from Austrlalia couldn't be bothered to look up who else has given them money to help combat the ravages of global warming. But if you visit their government web site Kirabati and all the Gilbert islands are a lovely place to visit.

 

I don't doubt that Pete, given that tourism is one of their biggest earners.

 

[Mark]

Regarding wind farms, percentages of output, efficiency, effectiveness in supplying a power grid, etc., etc., etc.; if, after investing bazillions of HIS OWN MONEY (not the taxpayers') into wind farms, no lesser man than T. Boone Pickens has thrown in the towel regarding same because HE SAYS THEY AREN'T A COST EFFECTIVE NOR A PRACTICAL/RELIABLE SOURCE OF ENERGY, and he admits he's "...lost (his) a--" in the wind farm business - I'm going to throw in on HIS side. He's actually been there and DONE that for real. He knows from experience what he's talking about.

The non-biased, non agenda-driven reality of the market place will usually expose and eliminate hype-driven, pie-in-the-sky hoaxes in pretty darn short order...as it seems to have already done in the wind power 'bidnuss'.


...now I suppose we'll see someone post a crab pot full of charts, graphs and statistics (as well as an economics treatise or two by Paul Krugman) purporting to prove that the likes of T. Boone and I are completely clueless loons.

Don't forget Larry, that Wind can plug the gaps in generation and prop up the system during peak time! Well according to some! :laugh:

Oh btw, it may not be common knowledge, but there is a plan to build a tidal generation facility in the Severn Estuary. All it needs for the businesses involved to make it happen, is Legislation and a minimum price per kWh guarantee from the government. What a shame our governments have set this subsidy precedent by backing up all this crap, worthless, look-good only BS. Now no one will even build proper solutions without massive Tax Payer subsidies!

How many ways can we say MORONS?

 

[Bob Fechter]

As the level of bullshit rises in California, I wonder if I can get Australia to pledge money for me to move to Fiji also.