Roush 427IR: Camshaft & Distributor Gears FAILURE

[OliveR]

Hello,

I don't post often but I read every weeks all subjects that are very interested for a rookie like me in the world of GT40.

I've got a SPF GT40 MKII (GT40/P2193) with a ROUSH 427IR since 6 months and here is what happened to me yesterday:

I was driving the car and suddenly I heard a mechanical noise behind me and the engine went off. Next… impossible to restart it.

I found the cause: the distributor gear AND the camshaft gear are very damaged and need to be replaced!!!!! For an engine with 5000 miles that have been rebuild one time, it’s not normal at all !!!!!! I’m sure the builder installed a high volume oil pump that stress much more the distributor and camshaft gears than a standard oil pump.

Now I have to remove the camshaft.

Today I removed the intake manifold, drain water and remove the water pump in order to remove the distribution timing cover. The problem is that I haven’t been able to remove the damper !!!

Do you have a solution for me to remove the damper or do I need to do what I’d like to avoid: remove the engine from the car…..

If it’s the only solution, does anybody have the documentations to do that job please ? Any documentations for disassembly/reassembly of an engine/gearbox/transaxle in a SPF GT40 ?

Every suggestions or advices will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

OliveR

 

[Darrin]

Those things have a two year warranty on them for one if I recall. Go here and check it out: 427 SRX Crate Engine

Next, I'd contact Roush Engines and ask them what they suggest.

Hello,

I don't post often but I read every weeks all subjects that are very interested for a rookie like me in the world of GT40.

I've got a SPF GT40 MKII (GT40/P2193) with a ROUSH 427IR since 6 months and here is what happened to me yesterday:

I was driving the car and suddenly I heard a mechanical noise behind me and the engine went off. Next… impossible to restart it.

I found the cause: the distributor gear AND the camshaft gear are very damaged and need to be replaced!!!!! For an engine with 5000 miles that have been rebuild one time, it’s not normal at all !!!!!! I’m sure the builder installed a high volume oil pump that stress much more the distributor and camshaft gears than a standard oil pump.

Now I have to remove the camshaft.

Today I removed the intake manifold, drain water and remove the water pump in order to remove the distribution timing cover. The problem is that I haven’t been able to remove the damper !!!

Do you have a solution for me to remove the damper or do I need to do what I’d like to avoid: remove the engine from the car…..

If it’s the only solution, does anybody have the documentations to do that job please ? Any documentations for disassembly/reassembly of an engine/gearbox/transaxle in a SPF GT40 ?

Every suggestions or advices will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

OliveR

 

[Jac Mac]

OliveR, do I understand your post correctly that the motor has already had a rebuild within the 5000 miles.

You will need to make /borrow/buy a puller to remove the crank damper.

On reassembly ensure you have a distributor gear that is compatible with the type of camshaft chosen & that it is fitted correctly to the distributor shaft.

Personally I would be using a std volume oil pump. with the smaller dia rod journals of those engines there is actually less bearing area to feed than a std 351w .

It is quite likely that the debris from the failing dist gear will have caused further damage, a complete strip down would be wise.

 

[Mike]

For an engine with 5000 miles that have been rebuild one time, it’s not normal at all !!!!!!

I’m sure the builder installed a high volume oil pump that stress much more the distributor and camshaft gears than a standard oil pump.

OliveR

Roush installed the oil pump or the rebuilder at 5000 miles? What was the cause for the first rebuild and how many miles were on the engine when that occurred?

 

[John]

I feel your pain. I had that happen at less than 500 miles on my motor (not Roush). It was a cam gear failure, not due to material mismatch though.
Like the others have said, there will be metal bits floating around in there so that will need to be addressed.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Do you have a solution for me to remove the damper or do I need to do what I’d like to avoid: remove the engine from the car…..

You need a "harmonic balancer puller" such as:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/?keyword=harmonic%20balancer%20puller&dds=1

This is the only one Summit lists as suitable for a Windsor, I guess because the stock balancer (damper) does not have threaded puller holes. However, that doesn't mean yours does not have those holes, so first I would suggest looking for threaded holes and then locate a puller that fits them. If there aren't any there is nothing wrong with using a 3-jaw puller around the periphery of the balancer, I just like the threaded hole kind better.

As for general advice on engine disassembly/assembly, I don't think there is anything unusual to say, except that you will probably have a sore lower back from leaning over the engine to deal with the distributor. My main concern would be with whether you have the clearance needed at the lower edge of the firewall opening to have good access to the damper, and since I don't have a Windsor in mine I don't know what your situation is. With my FE I'm pretty sure the damper could not be removed while in the car, but you likely have more room. But you probably already know whether that will work.

I would definitely recommend getting a good Windsor rebuild book, and there are several on Amazon. Tom Monroe's is good if I remember right; I have it but it's packed away right now. He sometimes posts here.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-Small-Block-Ford-Engines/dp/0912656891/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367889288&sr=1-2&keywords=ford+windsor+351[/ame]

If you do move on to pulling the whole engine I could write you an instruction article from memory, I think, as could some other people here. If that would help just let me know. I don't remember anything difficult per se, it's just a lot of steps and you will likely want a helper at the time of actually suspending and removing the engine. I've always done it alone, but really just for the challenge, not because it's easy or even necessarily a good idea. I would allocate two full days for removal, assuming no hold-ups from missing tools and no "surprises" (eg something seized or stripped or inaccessible, etc.) And probably twice that for installation.

Bonne chance, mon ami.

 

[Jac Mac]

You need a "harmonic balancer puller" such as:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/?keyword=harmonic%20balancer%20puller&dds=1

This is the only one Summit lists as suitable for a Windsor, I guess because the stock balancer (damper) does not have threaded puller holes. However, that doesn't mean yours does not have those holes, so first I would suggest looking for threaded holes and then locate a puller that fits them. [If there aren't any there is nothing wrong with using a 3-jaw puller around the periphery of the balancer,NOOOOOdo not do this, any pulling must be done on the inner hub of the damper, any force applied to the outer ring may distort or move it! I just like the threaded hole kind better.

As for general advice on engine disassembly/assembly, I don't think there is anything unusual to say, except that you will probably have a sore lower back from leaning over the engine to deal with the distributor. My main concern would be with whether you have the clearance needed at the lower edge of the firewall opening to have good access to the damper, and since I don't have a Windsor in mine I don't know what your situation is. With my FE I'm pretty sure the damper could not be removed while in the car, but you likely have more room. But you probably already know whether that will work.

I would definitely recommend getting a good Windsor rebuild book, and there are several on Amazon. Tom Monroe's is good if I remember right; I have it but it's packed away right now. He sometimes posts here.

How to Rebuild Small-Block Ford Engines: Tom Monroe: 9780912656892: Amazon.com: Books

If you do move on to pulling the whole engine I could write you an instruction article from memory, I think, as could some other people here. If that would help just let me know. I don't remember anything difficult per se, it's just a lot of steps and you will likely want a helper at the time of actually suspending and removing the engine. I've always done it alone, but really just for the challenge, not because it's easy or even necessarily a good idea. I would allocate two full days for removal, assuming no hold-ups from missing tools and no "surprises" (eg something seized or stripped or inaccessible, etc.) And probably twice that for installation.

Bonne chance, mon ami.

Note of caution within text of above quote!

 

[OliveR]

Hi guys and thanks for your replies.

@Darrinps: The engine is out of warranty, it has been build in 2009.

@Jac Mac: The engine has been rebuilt one time in the first 5000 miles. The previous owner was in fourth gear (ZFQ) and missed the fifth... He engaged the third.... You imagine the result: Over rev. Some valves destroyed the heads, two sleeves have been added in 4 & 8 cylinders.

That's why I'm really dissatisfied with what happen to me now !!!

Well concerning the distributor gear I agree with you, I'm going to first remove the camshaft, check the model and order the same including the correct distributor gear.

As you said I'm going to order a std oil pump to replace the current high volume one.

Concerning the debris I'm not sure that the problem occured suddenly so the debris should have been eliminated slowly in the oil circuit and must be either in the oil pan or in the oil filter ==> I'll check of course.

@AWatkins: Alan, I don't have many room to place a damper puller. My damper has the threaded puller holes, that's ok from that side.
About desassembly/reassembly I've already rebuilt my 427FE from my Cobra and as you say it's time and organisation but nothing difficult.
Thanks for the Amazon's link, I've just ordered the book...

Removing the engine with the transaxle and the gearbox will allow me to check my disk clutch/throwout bearing and work better on the engine to clean it and replace the camshaft.
Alan, if you have little time I really appreciate if you can send me any documentations or pictures that could help me in this job.

Many thanks to all again,

OliveR

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Alan, if you have little time I really appreciate if you can send me any documentations or pictures that could help me in this job.

OK I'll get to work on it. give me a day or two.

 

[OliveR]

Alan, that's OK, I've removed the engine/transaxle/gearbox this afternoon with a friend. 4 hours to do the job, not too bad for the first time.

I'll post a picture soon.

Next I'll disassemble the engine Saturday or Sunday.

Thanks again,

OliveR

 

[Pierre-Louis]

Salut Olivier,

Pas de chance décidémment ! Je suis en vacances, j'ai pas ma doc sous la main, sinon je t'aurais envoyé un scan des bonnes pages (je dois avoir des tableaux de compatibilité AAC/pignon quelque part).

Un démontage/nettoyage/vérification complet me paraît effectivement indispensable, Olivier D. que tu connais a eu la même mésaventure sur son windsor stroker, et après ouverture il a été constaté de la limaille partout dans le moulin !

Bon courage...

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Alan, that's OK, I've removed the engine/transaxle/gearbox this afternoon with a friend. 4 hours to do the job, not too bad for the first time.

Nice Job! Going back in will take longer, but I bet you could do it in a day.

 

[OliveR]

Well the engine is open...

I just find a camshaft gear destroyed and some debris in the oil pan but that's all.

The cylinders are ok, the pistons too.

Now a good cleaning of the engine and the parts I'll reinstall and order the parts to Brent Lykins (B2-Motorsports) in the US (for those who don't know him).

Here is a picture of the camshaft....



@Pilouleshublots: I'll call you next week.

OliveR

 

[Seymour Snerd]

NOOOOOdo not do this, any pulling must be done on the inner hub of the damper, any force applied to the outer ring may distort or move it!

Of course, cuz there's rubber in there. So what's up with the OTC tool? Is it somehow avoiding that problem? I notice that the product description says:

"Designed for removing damper pulleys in tight engine compartments, without removing the radiator. Use on the following:
GM 2000 Generation III 4.8L, 5.3L, 5.7L 6.0L, and 8.1L V8s. Also works on Cadillac 4.5, 4.6, and 4.9L V8s beginning in 1988. Chevrolet trucks 2003–later 4.2L I6, 2004–current 3.5L I5 and 2005–current 2.8L I4.
Chrysler engines from 1990–later, including 2.0L, 2.4L-4s; plus 2.5L, 2.7L, 3.3L, 3.5L, and 3.8L V6s.
Ford 1995–later V8 engines with 3 spoke pressed on damper.
Mitsubishi Eclipse 1995–1999 2.0L DOHC non-turbo. "

IAE it really isn't intended for this application despite what Summit racing thinks.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

OK I'll get to work on it. give me a day or two.

Decided to write it anyway. Probably someday someone will want to remove an engine from an SPF for the first time.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/superformance-gt40s/40179-spf-engine-r-r-document.html#post408268

 

[Keith]

Well the engine is open...

I just find a camshaft gear destroyed and some debris in the oil pan but that's all.

The cylinders are ok, the pistons too.

Now a good cleaning of the engine and the parts I'll reinstall and order the parts to Brent Lykins (B2-Motorsports) in the US (for those who don't know him).

Here is a picture of the camshaft....

View attachment 65393



@Pilouleshublots: I'll call you next week.



OliveR

Ouch. Was there any debris in the filter? Hope you're going to have the block high pressure washed and those rifle brushes in all it's little secret places too.

 

[Rick]

You can see on the cam journal where "bits of metal" were in the oil, some light scoring has occured. The engine needs to come apart to clean all the galleys. You will find similar marks on the crank journals. Pull it completely apart to save yourself some grief later.

 

[Howard Jones]

Your pictures shows a steel cam gear ruined with large pieces broken off. You have steel swarf in the oiling system. If you take a chance and leave it there hoping it doesn't end up on a bearing surface then it's your call.

BUT that stroker crank and rods cost a lot more than a gasket kit. Not to mention the cam bearings, pistons, block and everything else in that engine that is softer than the steel bits off that cam gear.

It's a tear down, full clean up and rebuild. Hopefully you haven't damaged cylinder bores or pistons, and the crank and rod bearing haven't spun. If you do it now it will be a lot cheaper than loosing the bet and hurting the costly stuff.

Sorry for the bad news but I/we just want to see you come out of this with as little damage to you wallet as possible.

If you have a MSD distributor call them once you have a new cam and they can help with a dis gear recommendation. COMP Cams can also help. Call their tech line.

COMP Cams® - Technical Support and Contact Page

MSD Ignition

 

[OliveR]

Thanks for your recommendations.

I've ordered yesterday to B2-Motorsports (Brent Lykins) all parts needed to rebuild my engine. He suggested me a Comp Cams camshaft with a compatible distributor gear for my Accel distributor (DFI). I also buy a new timing kit and all the gaskets of course. No need to replace the lifters (hydraulic roller).
As all is disassemble I've ordered too a new clutch disk.

Engine should be ready to run at the end of next week...

OliveR

 

[Randy V]

I would add the one thing that I am certain was damaged.

A standard volume, standard pressure oil pump.

Make certain that you disassemble the new pump, wash thoroughly and coat the gerotor assembly with some assembly lube when you reassemble.
You will also want to either replace or carefully flush out your oil pickup assembly.

If you have an oil cooler, now is a good time to remove and flush all lines as well as the cooler itself. If the oil filter was a remote mount and plumbed into the circuit "after" the cooler - replace the cooler.

Best of luck to you!