Something has me worried

Lynn,
Be careful. If you go to the one man one vote you have a true democracy and that is basicly mob rule. The group with the mostest would be the only ones to get their way.(sometimes I think that wouldn't be such a bad thing) The electorial college is the level field maker. Or put another way another check in the balance system.
When the whole system was designed, it was presented to the commoner as Lynn stated. However, to the aristocracy in the country, it was presented a little differently. They were told, yes the commoner gets to vote, but we will make it on a work day(a little longer than the 8 hour day), and we will get to vote unincumbered, and to top it off, we(the aristocracy) will control the electorial college, who really elect the president.
We have already given up one of the checks in the legislative branch. We don't need to give up this one too. As some of you may remember, the house of representatives was elected by the popular vote. The senate, however was appointed by the states legislature and governor, giving the states a sayso in the legislative process. That way the states could protect their "rights" in legislations. Remember the states had the check on the populist representatives, who would vote for anything that benefited their constituents and helped reassure their reelection. The sevnators had to answer to the states legislatures and govenors. Their job was to protect the "states rights" with respect to legislation.(a check on the mob rule thing). You only got replaced if the states legislature or governor got replaced by the oposing party. What happened, is that several states legislatures were so evenly split, they could not come to an agreement on who should be one or both of the senators for that state. That left some vacancys in the senate body. Not wanting to have a state felling left out, several years back, they changed the process to the popular vote for senators. Now they, just like their represenative brethern are only concerned with being reelected, and they spend all of their senate time doing nothing else but making sure of it. Ever since then, you have seen the states rights being eaten up by the federal government. There are fewer and fewer things that the states control. They have no one fighting for their "rights". Thus you see more and more things pushed to the federal level. The states have fewer things that they can control. Those that have a socialist agenda(read the few who want to rule the many) are working hard to get their agenda on the federal docket. Some are Democrat and some are Republican, and a lot are the Green party. One example is the gay marriage issue. Seperation of church and state is another.These are liberal issues and I use the gay marriage issue just for example. Why do you think they chose Massachusetts(Sp?) and California for the challenge to legalize it? They are the two most liberal states there are. By legalizing it, they were trying to slide it in by way of the back door on the other states since they have reciprocity with the other states(what you do is OK with me as long as what I do is OK with you). Some of the states are trying to fight back with their legislatures making it a state's constitutional issue(Ga. for example). They want the right to decide if it should be legal in their state. By getting the liberal states to say it's legal, they will work through the courts to write legislation making it legal everywhere.(another problem with the checks and balances, as the courts are supposed to rule on legislation, not write it)
I am sure I am not 100% right on, but you should be able to see what my gist is here.
Well enough of my rambling. I have an idea for those that think they are true republican or democrat or whatever. If you would like to see which party you are more in line with, go to Neal Boortz.com and take the political preference test and see if you align with the party you profess. I believe some of you will be a little surprised.
Bill
 

Lynn Larsen

Lynn Larsen
Bill,

You misunderstood. You are saying exactly what I was saying against my understanding of what Bill Bayard was alluding to. You are preaching to the choir buddy!!!

Evidence my statement: "I am afraid we have to have some form of heirarchal representation in our government else anarchy would insue."

Election is almost over. I don't think anyone is projecting a clear winner yet. (at least the last time I looked) But tomorrow we can all get back to our normal lives. Get behind who ever wins and work together to take this GREAT COUNTRY, warts and all, onward and upward! Three cheers for no more political ads!! HIP HIP HORRRRRAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Lynn
 
Pat - almost everyone pays taxes in one way or another.
Sales tax. If you pay sales tax, you should have a voice in
how it is used. Not everyone can afford to own land. However,
many of them work and pay income tax. Again, they should have
a say. What do you say to the housewife who lives in a state
where there is no community property? Since she doesn't pay
income tax nor property tax, she doesn't get to vote? Or
the 18 year old just out of high school, staring at a
possible draft for a war they don't want to be in? I hope to
god this doesn't happen to your kids or my kids, but if it
does, I sure hope they have the right to voice their opinions
at the poll. They may not be paying taxes to the government, but
they potentially could give a whole lot more - their lives.
And a life, IMHO, is worth more than any amount of tax someone
can pay. Remember, this country was founded on the
belief that all men (and women) are created equal, and have
certain unalienable rights. That's why every US citizen
has the right to vote - to protect those freedoms.

Ian
 

Lynn Larsen

Lynn Larsen
I agree, except for felons. They forfeit the right to have a say in things.

As to what constitues a felony, that is a whole other debate.

Lynn
 
What about those aliens that cross the border to work awhile and then go home. Do they get to vote? They pay taxes. Maybe it would work better if limited to U. S. citizens, who are not felons, and not getting welfare checks or EBT cards????? Next time your in Walmart or any of the other marts, take a look at the credit/debit card reader. there is a button that says EBT. That is Electronic Benefits Transfer(welfare). It seems some politican thought it was embarrasing for those on welfare to hand over the vouchers or stamps, so they now can use a credit card type just like the real people do.
Bill
 
Currently, it's supposed to be legal US citizens (or is it
residents?), 18 and over, who are not convicted felons.
I have no problem with that. I think welfare recipients
should have the right to vote Bill. After all, there are
many welfare recipients who did not start out that way.
Many divorced mothers, or single moms, are welfare recipients.
They should not be excluded. And since you cannot address
welfare recipients on a case-by-case basis, all are and
should be allowed to voice their opinions.

Ian
 
Ian, all your points are good, but you and I have fundamenta disagreements. Our founding fathers did not believe all were created equal - women were not allowed to vote. It is only in the recent past that there has existed this drive to expand the voting franchise. No matter how badly someone's feelings may be hurt, that fact alone should not bestow the right to vote. When someone can vote to take money from my pocket to put it into their own, we have a fundamental problem. This too is a recent development, and in looking at politicans, most if not all are promising someone something. Who pays for it? You and I. We can cloud it in terms of various fees and regulations but the net effect is the same. So if someone is going to promise something, it has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is your pocket and mine. Again, when someone can vote themselves access to my money, or yours, or Lynn's, we have a problem. This government we have today was never envisioned by our founding fathers.

Just because someone works for a company does necessarily give them a right to make management decisions. Just because someone lives here should give them a say in the decision-making process.

I realize there are probably people out there who think I am the biggest redneck (for those outside the U.S., read bigotted idiot), but I am tired of people saying we need to feel this or that. Every great nation on this planet was founded by men who were self-reliant. No great nation came about because a bunch of weak-kneed individuals got together and tried to figure out how to take from one group to give to another. I realize that my hopes will never become reality, but I can dream.

Now that was a rant.
 
Pat - I understand what you are saying, and yes, I think
we have a fundamental difference of ideas.

However, the government is pretty good at voting to take money
out of our pockets and putting it in their own! Most of Congress
has no need of a salary, yet they always manage to vote
themselves pay raises, even when the economy can ill afford
it.

Ian
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Maybe you should have elections every year. This has to have been one of the most informative, extremely civil and best debates in a while on this forum.
Dave M
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Pat, I'm getting myself a new avatar for a variety of reasons, mostly political, which I won't go into details about here.
 
Our neighbor next door at the office used to have one of his girlfriends who posed for this group. www.gungirls.com. Lots of fun. I thought the picture matched the wisdom of my comments (I bet a lot of folks would agree!).

Like I said, I enjoy the exchange of ideas and the differing of opinions, it makes one have to think, and it forces us out of our ruts. Regardless of what som people say, the last elections have been very tame when comparing them to past elections (re: Jefferson, Lincoln, etc), and I think that there is nothing wrong with being partisan - at least it shows you care and are willing to take a stand.

So what are you going for Ron? By the way, how's the new house, garage, et al?
 
Re: Great debates

I turned on the radio at about 1 pm today and the only comment I will make is. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Lynn Larsen

Lynn Larsen
As a parting comment, I think we should all give ourselves a great big round of applause:

This election had the largest turn out ever in both percentage and total numbers. Well done America!

Proud to be an American,
Lynn

RETRACTION: I learned on CNN today that, in fact, there were larger turn outs in the 1960 and 1968 elections. While still a fantastic turn out, it was not a record breaker. Sorry.
 
David,
We could probably stop a lot of the nonsense if they had a one term office. Each member(senate, house, president etc.) would be elected for one term only for whatever lenght you wanted.It coould be house for 2 years, senate for 4 and pres. for 6. Then they could run again after the next term expired. It might remove a lot of self interest, or at least some of it. While we are on it, have any of you heard much abbout the ideas of a flat tax or national sales tax? I don't mean on top of personal income tax. Replacing it. It's been kicking around for about 12 years now and has been pushed real hard by a Ga. senator. Have seen an article or two even by noted economist. It basicly is a sales tax ofabout 23 to 28% with restrictions on various things and credits for the "real" poor of financially chalanged. I am sure there are lots of things that will need to be worked out, such as IRAs and tax defered things, as well as several segments of the economy such as home sales etc.
Its apeal is the fairness of it. The more you send, the more tax yo pay. All goods have an "imbedded" tax of about 22%. It has to do with the cost of manufacturing shipping etc. So the cost of goods would fall ofsetting some of the increase in the tax. It would get rid of this class warfare that the left keeps trying to pull up. I don't have the exact #s but it works out something like the top 5% (thats about 80K and up) income earners pay something like 65%(very high %, my numbers are probably off) of all the taxes in this country. We have almost reached the point where about bottom 50% of the earners pay 0% taxes, with exemtions, credits etc. The last tax relief that was given had to figure out a way for these people to get more tax credits in order to pass. Iteresting concept to think about.
On that voting thing. There has got to be a way to limit those that are living off society from having a say in increasing the money that goes to them. Maybe some sort of incentive program as it was originally envisionsed. A helping hand not a way of living. ( I personally think the churches should do more to help. Thats what they did back in the stone age.(my age)) Maybe limit the vote based on lenght of time on welfare??? I don't know. There will always be those that don't want to put out any effort to work or produce. There has to be some kind of method that makes it uncomfortable or inconvienent to be there, and more comfortable and convienent to be off welfare. There will always be victims of circumstance, but it should not be a way of life.


Yeah, glad the elections are over, now we can get back to building cars /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Bill
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Pat, the new house is all settled in, we've got everything setup and ready to go. It was a job!

The garage has been up and working for about 3 months now, but not the new standalone garage I still have to build.

Recently I got interested and involved in SCCA racing. Remember well over a year ago I posted about wanting to race and wanting to know how? A few people responded "SCCA" but it was hard to find anything out about it. Finally, I met the right folks and learned a lot more about The Secret Car Club of America. And, bought a Jensen Healey (uses the Lotus 907 motor, same in my Esprit, so I know it) to go racing is Improved Touring class.

The problem is that the car was basically free and needed quite a bit of work to be race ready, which I am in the middle of doing. It comes back from the cage builder today and then comes home for paint, engine install, etc.

The reason I am so gun-ho about working on this thing and not the 40 is that if the JH and I don't go to race school in Jan. and get our license then I have to wait a full year to do it again. I don't want to wait a year so I'm working like hell to get it done. The downside is no work on the 40.

The upside is that I've meet a LOT of motorheads lately and they are fired up about getting the 40 on the road. So, once they quit helping me with the JH and I quit helping them with their race cars we'll be doing a lot of time on the 40.

Ron
 
Hey Bill, That's is how the presidency of Venezuela works. Joseph /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Malcolm

Supporter
This landed on my computer today! I would rather have one showing Blair.....
 

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Today I was watching the European news and it was said that it was odvious that Bush has made many mistakes concerning his foreign policies. They thought that he should change his policies to follow the European policies and then maybe he could get help in Iraq and the fight against terrism. Are the European people being told that France, Germany, Russia and the UN have been paid off by Saddam Hussain with the oil for food program? Are they willing to let hundreds of thousands of people be killed just because their leaders can be payed off. If they do now this I think that they should know that Bush and the USA are on the side of good not evil and we will never be baught off by a "SATIN ". The only way that the US will beable to get these cuontries to be our allies again is if the US government takes our taxes and payes off those countries with more money than they got from the oil for food program. These people that think they are so high and mighty should hold their leaders to a higher standard. Our President Bush and the majority of the American people won't be baught by the devil and will always be the one that can be counted on to keep the people of the world free. Don't foregt that the only land that the USA has ever asked for after liberating countries is enough land to bury our dead.
My wife wants a new BMW. We went to look at them. I noticed that the car was manufactured in Germany and the transmission was made in France. That sealed the deal. By the way France has upped their terror alert from run to hide !!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Joseph
 
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