Terrorism comes to Australia .

[Larry L.]

OK so would there be a difference between an armed citizen dealing with a terrorist situation as against criminals? Would there be a different mindset between the two which might influence any decision an armed citizen might take...Would an armed citizen be aware of any such differences?

A perp with a gun is a perp with a gun. His mindset OR that of his armed 'opposition' doesn't matter AFAIC. I doubt any time would be spent 'analyzing' any of that. One would either choose to act or not regardless.

Could any lack of awareness or specific training in a terrorist situation, increase the threat?

The clear 'threat' is some innocent person or persons may be killed intentionally regardless of whether or not any defensive action is taken. That's pretty much as high as any threat gets before the fact.

I am trying to get my head around an armed citizen dealing with a hostage situation with his personal sidearm. I am thinking that perhaps, the very presence of a CW might increase the risks...

No one should even be aware that someone other than the perp has a gun until it's drawn and fired. That's the whole advantage/purpose of carrying "concealed".

Bottom line? As I see it, all this stuff can be over-anylized to death (no pun intended). In the end, as I mentioned, one either chooses to ACT or he doesn't...and, as a result, things will either turn out WELL or they won't...just as would be the case should NO defensive action be taken. And that's true regardless of who actually takes the defensive action - including action by the police. The only real question is; should the way things turn out be left soley to the whim of the perp/perps?

:chug:

 

[Keith]

Over analyzed? If you choose to CCW then surely you had better have given some thought as to how you might use it?

Clearly a terrorist will have a different mindset, and would require a different response, or would you just clear leather and double-double tap with a tight grouping in centre mass?

It's one thing for trained people but it's quite another for Joe Public. I am trying to determine whether it would be an advantage to CCW in general day to day terms. Or perhaps an overt carry? Clearly, the gun lobby thinks so, but there has to be another side.

Does anyone on here regularly CCW?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Thanks for the response Pete. I don't know how the judiciary is selected in OZ or if they have reelections but it seems to me there is some need for sanity over the political correctness. Apparently the Sidney coffee shop jihadist wasn't even on a terror watch list. One would think the letters to the KIA families alone would raise his profile much less the charges related to his wife's murder. The public nature of the Sidney gunman's changing from Shiism to Sunni Islam, a move some would consider apostasy, also should have been a red flag as this self proclaimed cleric clearly was heading in a radical direction.

I also read that in 2005 in Sidney police were dispatched to arrest a suspect on terror charges who fired a weapon, hitting one of the officers in the hand. According the article, the suspect "had with him … two loaded guns in connection with the preparation for a terrorist act" and was found to possess jihadist propaganda, weapons, acids, and instructions for explosives.
He later pled guilty to the terrorism charges but was supported by the judge in the confrontation which wounded the officer because "of the the climate of anti-Muslim feeling in the community at the time, he believed that he might be harmed by the police". As a result, he escaped charges related to shooting the officer and was only convicted of firing a gun in a public place and using an unauthorized firearm. Incredible...


This also begs the question as to the effectiveness of the restrictive gun laws in Australia. As I wrote earlier, it's incredible that the murdering subhuman hairball in the coffee shop had bail and was on the street. But it's positively amazing that he's able to acquire a gun.

Is there any indication that there is public sentiment for a change in either the judiciary or the gun laws?

No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au

Pat,
Unlike America our Judges and Magistrates are appointed by the government of the day. They are not elected and as we have had for about the last 13 years a left wing government in power most are of that persuasion. Also a judge is appointed until he retires, it is almost impossible to sack them, certainly not for incompetence. Another factor is they earn a lot less than than any competent lawyer or Barrister can earn in practice, so those who except a judgeship with few exceptions tend to be not the sharpest pencils in the pencil box.
A sorry state of affairs indeed.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

All complete and total speculation. Untrained -- and that is what you guys all are doing Rambo wet dream fantasies aside -- people with guns opening fire in a crowded cafe is not teh solution to this no matter what you think. But carry on with your fantasies.

Oh yeah, this nutjob had his gun permit, and his gun legally:

Australian PM: Why did hostage taker have gun license? - CNN.com

So this was actually a "good guy" with a gun. Making all the hand wringing about liberals or gun laws being responsible for this complete and utter bullshit.

What this was was a failure of the system to keep a gun LEGALLY out of a criminal, insane person's hands.

I will be totally amazed if this terrorist had a gun permit as reported on CNN.
Our gun laws are so onerous and difficult to comply with that the only way this mad bastard could get a permit would be corruptly. Certainly no one with a criminal record and out on bail for attempted murder could possibly get a permit.
The weapon he carried which was a sawn off shotgun is illegal anyway.

P.S. The NSW police via Twitter have stated that the Perp did not have a gun licence.
If he did the person who issued it should be looking at the job adds and hireing a lawyer.

 

[Larry L.]

Over analyzed? If you choose to CCW then surely you had better have given some thought as to how you might use it?

Clearly a terrorist will have a different mindset, and would require a different response, or would you just clear leather and double-double tap with a tight grouping in centre mass?

It's one thing for trained people but it's quite another for Joe Public. I am trying to determine whether it would be an advantage to CCW in general day to day terms...

...none of the individuals I know who 'carry' consider their sidearm just a 'macho' fashion statement/accessory and therefore have neither the skill or mindset to use it if necessary. None.

Does that address your question?

Or perhaps an overt carry?

Why 'advertise' one is in possession? I can see unwanted 'issues' popping up if one does that! But, that's just MHO.

Does anyone on here regularly CCW?

They'd be foolish to admit that in public IMHO...especially on the net!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Over analyzed? If you choose to CCW then surely you had better have given some thought as to how you might use it?

Clearly a terrorist will have a different mindset, and would require a different response, or would you just clear leather and double-double tap with a tight grouping in centre mass?

It's one thing for trained people but it's quite another for Joe Public. I am trying to determine whether it would be an advantage to CCW in general day to day terms. Or perhaps an overt carry? Clearly, the gun lobby thinks so, but there has to be another side.

Does anyone on here regularly CCW?

I certainly would if I could legally do so.

 

[Keith]

Fascinating. I never gave that a second thought, but over here, we are so divorced from the gun carrying/owning culture, it's hard to be objective to be honest.

 

[Jack]

"Always carry, never tell".

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

It is only recently that I have thought of the need to carry. Since the Muslims beheaded the soldier in England to be precise.

Times have changed, I remember when everyone would leave their car unlocked and the keys in the ignition. And if the neighbour next door ran out of sugar or needed a cold beer they would enter your unlocked home borrow what they needed and leave you a note.
No need to carry then.
Now I am sounding like an old fart.

 

[Keith]

It is only recently that I have thought of the need to carry. Since the Muslims beheaded the soldier in England to be precise.

Now I am sounding like an old fart.

That's an interesting point. Someone carrying a gun could have put a stop to that in short order. But it still might have been too late for Lee as the car must have grievously injured him in the first instance. My hat is still off to those women who intervened. They should have got medals.

Not a fart Pete, a WOGG. Be proud...

 

[Larry L.]

Times have changed, I remember when everyone would leave their car unlocked and the keys in the ignition. And if the neighbour next door ran out of sugar or needed a cold beer they would enter your unlocked home borrow what they needed and leave you a note.
No need to carry then.

While growing up from the mid '40s thru the early '60s, the same was true here, Pete...except for neighbors walking right in and 'borrowing' this-or-that when no one was home. THAT never happened. 'Wasn't considered 'good form'.

No one locked the house...no one locked the car(s)...the keys were always kept in the ignition (so they were never lost!).

BUT...that was back when honesty and personal responsibility were the norm and the legal system dealt harshly with scumbags. Perps actually went to jail for breaking the law back then.

Imagine that. What a concept...

 

[Mesa]

BUT...that was back when honesty and personal responsibility were the norm and the legal system dealt harshly with scumbags. Perps actually went to jail for breaking the law back then.

Imagine that. What a concept...

Perps go to jail now...except we have so many of them - prisons can't hold them all. More possibly a sign of the increase % of law breakers than whether of not bad guys go to jail.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

While growing up from the mid '40s thru the early '60s, the same was true here, Pete...except for neighbors walking right in and 'borrowing' this-or-that when no one was home. THAT never happened. 'Wasn't considered 'good form'.

...

See, even back then we Aussies are more relaxed than you guys......Or maybe I was bought up on the wrong side of the tracks.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Perps go to jail now...except we have so many of them - prisons can't hold them all. More possibly a sign of the increase % of law breakers than whether of not bad guys go to jail.

Build more prisons create jobs!

 

[Larry L.]

See, even back then we Aussies are more relaxed than you guys......Or maybe I was bought up on the wrong side of the tracks.

Most likely BOTH! :lol:

 

[Howard Jones]

I'm in a restaurant, bank lobby, store, whatever. A Muslim looking guy comes in and starts alla ach baring, acting like a complete ass hole and pulls a gun. Then he says I'm gonna kill all of you if the government doesn't do X. Then he does kill somebody all the while I or the "armed citizen" is waiting for him to turn his back. He finally does to look out the front door. Draw weapon, take stance, acquire site picture, release safety, shoot him in the back 4 or 5 times, check for threats, lay weapon on floor, raise hands and wait for cops. Call lawyer before giving statement.

That isn't rocket science nor does it take years of training. Some yes, but not as difficult as driving a GT40 around a race track in earnest.

What I describe IS NOT a free for all, indiscriminate spraying of bullets all around the room. I drought that the prep would even get a shot off. If he did it would be un-aimed. Would I be pumped up......... hell yes.........scared......of course. I've been scared before..........I did ok.

Am I serious? You are God damn right I am. Do I carry all the time...........no...........should I ..............hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I will be totally amazed if this terrorist had a gun permit as reported on CNN.
Our gun laws are so onerous and difficult to comply with that the only way this mad bastard could get a permit would be corruptly. Certainly no one with a criminal record and out on bail for attempted murder could possibly get a permit.
The weapon he carried which was a sawn off shotgun is illegal anyway.

P.S. The NSW police via Twitter have stated that the Perp did not have a gun licence.
If he did the person who issued it should be looking at the job adds and hireing a lawyer.

It has now been established that the terrorist did not have a gun licence. The Prime Ministers advisors got it wrong..Tony not at all happy at looking a Goose.

 

[David Morton]

I carried a Belgian copy of the Browning FN 9mm pistol and a pocket of about 20 rounds loose (2 magazines worth) plus the official rounds (10) which were all taped up.
The loose rounds were loaded into the two spare magazines I had. I loaded one magazine only once when some one was apparently sneaking across the grass in the pouring rain. He ignored my shouting from the yellow card and my six airmen from the armoury guard were getting agitated but I told them not to load (SLR rifles) as I didn't really think I was dealing with a major threat. I eventually got to within about 15m of his six and realised he was opening the Stephenson Screen though he still didn't hear me. He seemed to sense I was behind and turned to face me and it was only then I realised he was deaf. He had the yellow card shouted three times - in N.I. it was only required once. I count myself lucky it was the last time I ever carried a weapon.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

P.S. The NSW police via Twitter have stated that the Perp did not have a gun licence.

The fact that the NSW police use "Twitter" does nothing to instill my confidence in their capabilities......

 

[Keith]

I count myself lucky it was the last time I ever carried a weapon.

Not as lucky as he was!:shocked: