The Price of Transaxles - Why are Transaxles Expensive?

JNielsen
I guess I forgot, that is forgot to remember, that the truggies and buggies running the offroad races are running Mendeola boxes. I agree with you that they are quite strong.

RamboLambo
Aside from the coolness factor, I am also looking for the ability to avoid the gas-guzzler tax in a small-scale manufacturer situation (the cost of testing and getting a series vehicle certified is astronomical, which is why Warren Mosler has not re-certified the MT900 for the LS7, simply because the amount of roadcar to racecars built is negligible) as well as driveability and yes, the cachet of building a series of bona-fide 200 mph+ streetcars. I wouldn't care to drive a high-revving multi-cam engine or even a torque-monster V8 to 200mph with "only" a 4/5 speed. I can't imagine that the engine would like being near redline for minutes at a time on a full-speed blast. With a race engine, that is another matter entirely. Most race teams build a new engine for every race. How many owners of exotics would care to buy a new $45,000 engine every time they "exercise" their car on the track?

JohnLowe
I can appreciate for the needs of all the GT40 enthusiasts and builders, that a transaxle that fits within your chassis and bodywork is a concern. For the rest of us in the kitcar/replicar/exotic car world, only having the choices of a transaxle that will fit in the GT40 is annoying. Aside from the XTrac 6012 and the GearFox T750/T900, there are no "off-the-shelf" gearboxes available. The XTrac is being offered at $25,000 per unit. I have no idea how much the GearFox box is going to cost, but I estimate around $20,000 per unit. Converting a Porsche gearbox offends my sensibilities as a potential manufacturer, not to mention has it's own downturns for a production car (ie, driving the ring from the coast side, rather than the drive side, due to flipping the unit for mid-mounted use). I went through an estimate & analysis with Tremec regarding the design & production of a series of transaxles using repackaged T56 internals, and my costs were still going to be almost $20,000 per box. A gearbox being offered in the $11-13,000 price range is much more reasonable, considering the price for a crate LS7 is $12-14,000.

I really do appreciate the feedback on this forum. I too love GT40s, but my initial reason in joining was to find alternatives to the ubiquitous ZF and Porsche transaxles.

:pepper::chug:

Price list in €uros for GearFox transmissions for a purchase of one unit.

T756H - 750 Nm 6 speed - H pattern manual shifting - 14.500 €
T756S - " " " - Sequential manual shifting - 15.500 €
T906H - 900 Nm 6 sp - H pattern manual shifting - 15.500 €
T906S - " " " - Sequential manual shifting - 16.500 €
T906E- " " " - Sequential sensors added for a remote semi automated shifting -17.500 €

The above mentioned quotations are including a release bearing.
15 months warranty from shipping date. Ex works GearFox plants.
Any customisation is quoted separetly as well as the warranty extension to 27 months.
I hope it clarifies a bit the doubts.

Regards

Wanni

 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Ron,
I am not advertising, promise. I removed a doubt of those guys.
It is to be clear and fair. How you want I sell my bits at 17.000 €uros when other gentlemen are doing it at 12.000 US?Now all of you are informed officially about this matter.
I think that it helps in the evaluation.
Regards
Wanni
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Wanni

If Ron thinks you are advertising then you must be advertising, it is his site.....

I would hate for you to be banned as you offer a host of experience.

Best regards

Tom
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Hey Tom,
what does it mean? If Ron tells me to eat a shit that I shall go around to find one?
I respect his point of view, even if the meter hasn't the same lenght for everybody. I told what was my thought very gently and the movie was over.
Now my new momie came up with the wrongest principle of a democratic repubblic.....shut up because you are a guest.
Pls find your limits. I do not think that Ron feels shine for indicating me where to walk, but I wont put my foot on a shit.
Now we can meet for a beer if you accept the invitation.
Friendly....friendly
Wanni
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Nobody is getting banned and nobody is being told to eat ****. I'm simply pointing out the site rules and how the site functions to a valued member who might have missed it when it was posted some months ago.

Please continue the transaxle discussion and if there are vendor/advertising related questions post them in the forum for "Forum Questions".

Thanks,
Ron
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Hey Ron,
take some time and join Tom and I in the pub for your beer with us.
The problems are for sure of another dimension.
Ciao Fish and chips & Cheese burger eaters.
Sincerly yours
Mangia spaghetti.
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Surprisingly I have to agree with Wanni on this one ! To enable people to judge whether a particular item is worth considering when assessing options, the first question will always be " how much do's it cost" after that it is up to the individual to forget or continue to consider that item. The basics that Wanni has given, ie simply the anticipated cost options, is fair enough, any further than that is advertising.
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Frank,
the pub is not closing yet. You are welcome in the beer party. The Guinness is already in the pint glass.
Ciao
Wanni
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Wow, Wanni, I thought yours would be much more expensive!

I Saw 2 of your boxes at the proffessional motorsport world expo last wednesday in Koln Germany, and they sure look the buisness. I looked at a lot of italian name tags but didn't see yours.

anyway I'd have a ZFQ or Cima over the mendeola but only because of location, I live in Holland europe so both of those manufacturers are basicly around the corner compared to Mendeola.

But since living close to germany provides pretty good used G50's Id probably go for for that, 15K for a box would double the price of all mechanics in the car. nice to hear some prices though.

Grtz thomas
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Actually I appreciate Wanni's input. I tried to convince Warren Mosler that the GearFox box would be more appropriate for his MT900 but I'm not sure if he listened to me. $25,000 USD (using the euros to dollar calculator I found online) would make it the single most expensive component on the car I'm designing. The chassis is a "folded-box" structure made of graphite-faced aluminum honeycomb, and my costs are $15,000 each. Add in a mold for the body work cut by CNC router, $30,000. My costs for all the panels are $20,000. As you can see, if I can't amortize more of the costs or economize somewhere without sacrificing quality, I am looking at a $200,000 automobile...before profit. I would like to bring in-house more of the processes, but the learning curve can be quite steep with some of the technologies. The machining parts I can handle. I've done some composite work, though I'm not sure I'm comfortable producing world-class finish worthy of a "supercar". I have a guy who has done some amazing interior work on streetrods that I would have do the finishing work. Again, my costs are $7500 just for materials and his time. I'm not whining or crying, just trying to let people know what I'm aiming for and trying to achieve.

Thanks Again!
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

On my depressing search for the right transaxle for my RCR40 currently under construction at Frans, the posts above gave me a huge smile....
I could see this one becoming another train wreck as I read down the posts :lol:.

However unfortunately no closer to a transaxle selection though. My fear is I will give up and bolt a Porsche box to a minimum of 390Kw (530HP) and ~700Nm (516 lb/ft) of torque and blow it up on the track, bin it and buy a proper box that will have come out in 1 years time :(.
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

First. Im on Wannis side as to his 'pricing' post.

Second, Jason, have a look at the Ultima cars website. They have posted their latest claim to fame with their GTR car with some amazing acceleration stuff. As they quote on their site 0-100-0 in 9.4 seconds etc. They say they are using a 720 hp motor on a 'standard' Porsche G50-03 gearbox! With all the thrashing they are giving it, it seems to be holding together. The -03 box has the small 190mm R&P!
Mind you, we havent seen it do a 1hour all-out in race conditions using that box though.
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

First. Im on Wannis side as to his 'pricing' post.

Second, Jason, have a look at the Ultima cars website. They have posted their latest claim to fame with their GTR car with some amazing acceleration stuff. As they quote on their site 0-100-0 in 9.4 seconds etc. They say they are using a 720 hp motor on a 'standard' Porsche G50-03 gearbox! With all the thrashing they are giving it, it seems to be holding together. The -03 box has the small 190mm R&P!
Mind you, we havent seen it do a 1hour all-out in race conditions using that box though.
Many thanks for your support RAMBO,
in your evaluation you have been a bit too semplicistic, sorry.
1) Compare the total weight of both the cars, it is one of the most influencing parameters for the life of a gearbox.
2) Do not care about the power, but take care about the torque. This is the influencing parameter. The best would be to compare the 2 torque dyno diagrams.
3) Compare the center of gravity position of the 2 cars. The Ultima one is extremely low. This means that the weight transfer to the rear wheels during a jump start is lower then in the second car.

The most important thing is.....when the DEMO vehicles are given to journalists and/or drivers for beating a record, they are never the same of the one which are normally sold.
They are prepared exclusively for the activity they shall advertise. Also considere that the Ultima is not street legal. It is a prototype forgetting any kind of rules for getting out the last horse power available.
Probably ( just to do not say certainly ) they use CUP tires for this event.
CUP tires are looking like street tires with a racing compound. Only who knows can say that the tires are or not CUP. They are undetectable without an instrument measuring the " shore hardeness ".
On top of it, it is an official vehicle from the company. This means that if it brakes down during the test nobody will know. Generally only the positive things are reported to VNP's ( very normal people ). And for last, who knows if the article is not paid???
Ciao
Wanni
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Wow, Wanni, I thought yours would be much more expensive!

I Saw 2 of your boxes at the proffessional motorsport world expo last wednesday in Koln Germany, and they sure look the buisness. I looked at a lot of italian name tags but didn't see yours.

anyway I'd have a ZFQ or Cima over the mendeola but only because of location, I live in Holland europe so both of those manufacturers are basicly around the corner compared to Mendeola.

But since living close to germany provides pretty good used G50's Id probably go for for that, 15K for a box would double the price of all mechanics in the car. nice to hear some prices though.

Grtz thomas
Hi Thomas,
I was in the CIMA stand Tuesday and Wendsday.
Haven't you seen 160 Kgs moving around? That was me.
Well, sometimes I was moving to the self service for filling my stomac with a clone of a sausage made out of petrol.
Anyway, nice to meet you here anyway.
On Thursday I could not be there thank to an idiot who stol my navigation system. Of course the passenger window was broken for getting into the car. I drove from Koeln to Bologna with a nylon at the glas place. Arriving around Nuernberg both my Xenon lamps switched off. I drove in the night only with anti fog lights and just to make bingo, for the first time I was driving quiet slow, 10 kms before home the turbo brake down. By getting oil in the cylinders through the intake system, it self combust bringing the engine so high in revs until some valves were bended. Then it switched of leaving me in the middle of nowhere with the car ready for demolition.
Never a Japanese car anymore.
Ciao
Wanni
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Wanni, it sounds as though you had quite the drive! ;) Sorry for your troubles.

Let's talk some about an affordable transaxle. I understand price of materials. I understand expense of R&D. I understand value-added services, ie, engineering, consulting, etc. I understand making a profit. But can you please explain to me how a sports-car gearbox costs MORE than many VEHICLES? There isn't enough steel or aluminum or electronic circuits controlling them to make them that expensive. There isn't enough MACHINING time in the components to make them that expensive. I have ordered and replaced many transmissions for 18-wheelers...in fact, for what one GearFox unit costs, I could have a Caterpillar 6-cylinder diesel engine overhauled with all new wear parts almost TWICE. That's including parts & labor. And factory labor at Caterpillar Machinery is $95 per hour.

So, why is it so expensive to purchase a good unit? You've already done the hard part...the engineering and spec'ing of materials. You've got the drawings done. You either have the machinery or the partners to machine your components. Justify to me the EXPENSE of a single gearbox. One gearbox that you have so lovingly and expertly created, costs more to purchase than my daily driver (!) cost to purchase. We're not talking F1 trickery here. We're not talking aerospace or even space-shuttle components. We're talking about: a) CASE b) shafts c) gears d)forks e)synchros or engagement dogs f)bearings g)shift rods h)ring & pinion. That's it folks, that's all that's in a transaxle. Why can I buy a bulletproof six speed manual transmission and bulletproof rear axle for my drag Mustang for 1/3 the price that a GearFox transaxle sells for? My Tranzilla T56 cost LESS than a junkyard Getrag transaxle (Porsche). It takes 1200 ft.lbs. of torque on a drag launch! 9310 steel gears and shafts. My 9 inch housing runs 9310 ring and pinion. 9310 steel is a premium aerospace steel used to make the gears and shafts for helicopter turbine gearboxes. It's shockproof, it's strong, it has tensile strength out the yang, it costs 1.5-3X as much as 4340....and still, with a stock case full of these components, it costs $6000 ready to run. I'm positively baffled why it costs so damn much to manufacture and sell a transaxle. It seems to me that everyone in the transaxle supply chain wants to make their maximum bucks up front and to hell with the end consumer.

So, please Wanni, explain to myself and everyone listening, why all the transaxle manufacturers want to bend us over, remove our wallets, and our pride along with it, when all WE want to do is complete what should be a simple business transaction. Seems to me, everyone should be happy if we could all just do what needs to be done!
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Very easy to calculate, my friend.
We start from a white sheet and we design the whole transmission after having made the research for purchasing some components.
This costs about 500.000 €
We make some tooling for casting and machining and this costs about 300.00 €
We prepare the plants for assembling and this costs about 200.00 €
We produce 10 prototypes for testing and this costs about 300.000 €
We do some tests and for that we shall buy a test rig for not stressed tests, this costs about 200.000 €. For the tests under load we do rent some facilities and this will cost about 300.000 €. We shall make some functional tests in the car and this will cost about 300.000 € for track renting, driver and engineers salary, gas, tires, and…and…and…
We have reached an investment of about 2 MIO of €uros.
In order to sell some units the price shall be affordable. For that we decide to have a break point after 400 units which adds 5.000 € per unit. Unfortunately on the first 100 units there is no profit due to the high percentage of warranty claims. This moves the break point to 500 units sold. But when the break point is reached, the product is lod and needs some more investments, but let us to not considere this stage and let us stop our evaluation on the 500 units.
Another parameter which shall be well known is that due to the torque capability, and due to the price, this product fits only in cars sold for more then 500.000 €uros. How many people worldwide any year can afford such a purchase??? Probably 1.500. More then 1.000 will buy big branded cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini etc….who are using their own transmissions. only 250 or 300 are left for buying the product of our clients. The sector of business is extremely dangerous because plenty of our clients are bankrupt quiet easly and none of them can secure an order covering 2 years of production. This means that my production lots will be too small for becoming inexpensive. Of course why shall I take the risk to pay for lots of 500 just for the pleasure to fill my store.
Now the final calculation. In this way:
The industrial cost of 1 unit is about 8.500 €
The company running costs are about 2.000 € per unit
The return of investment is 5.000 €uros
And I stop my list here.
This means that until I haven’t sold the transmission N° 500 I am wasting money.
It is now 5 years that I am doing the business and I have reached more or less 300 units. Actually we do sell about 110-130 units a year and this means that I have still to produce for 18 months before I make 0.
From that start to make some money, if the product does not become obsolete before.
If you think that some adventurers are starting to be concurrent, I let you imagine the conclusions of this story.
Regards
Wanni
 
Re: Mendeola Transaxles

Wanni, it sounds as though you had quite the drive! ;) Sorry for your troubles.

Let's talk some about an affordable transaxle. I understand price of materials. I understand expense of R&D. I understand value-added services, ie, engineering, consulting, etc. I understand making a profit. But can you please explain to me how a sports-car gearbox costs MORE than many VEHICLES? There isn't enough steel or aluminum or electronic circuits controlling them to make them that expensive. There isn't enough MACHINING time in the components to make them that expensive. I have ordered and replaced many transmissions for 18-wheelers...in fact, for what one GearFox unit costs, I could have a Caterpillar 6-cylinder diesel engine overhauled with all new wear parts almost TWICE. That's including parts & labor. And factory labor at Caterpillar Machinery is $95 per hour.

So, why is it so expensive to purchase a good unit? You've already done the hard part...the engineering and spec'ing of materials. You've got the drawings done. You either have the machinery or the partners to machine your components. Justify to me the EXPENSE of a single gearbox. One gearbox that you have so lovingly and expertly created, costs more to purchase than my daily driver (!) cost to purchase. We're not talking F1 trickery here. We're not talking aerospace or even space-shuttle components. We're talking about: a) CASE b) shafts c) gears d)forks e)synchros or engagement dogs f)bearings g)shift rods h)ring & pinion. That's it folks, that's all that's in a transaxle. Why can I buy a bulletproof six speed manual transmission and bulletproof rear axle for my drag Mustang for 1/3 the price that a GearFox transaxle sells for? My Tranzilla T56 cost LESS than a junkyard Getrag transaxle (Porsche). It takes 1200 ft.lbs. of torque on a drag launch! 9310 steel gears and shafts. My 9 inch housing runs 9310 ring and pinion. 9310 steel is a premium aerospace steel used to make the gears and shafts for helicopter turbine gearboxes. It's shockproof, it's strong, it has tensile strength out the yang, it costs 1.5-3X as much as 4340....and still, with a stock case full of these components, it costs $6000 ready to run. I'm positively baffled why it costs so damn much to manufacture and sell a transaxle. It seems to me that everyone in the transaxle supply chain wants to make their maximum bucks up front and to hell with the end consumer.

So, please Wanni, explain to myself and everyone listening, why all the transaxle manufacturers want to bend us over, remove our wallets, and our pride along with it, when all WE want to do is complete what should be a simple business transaction. Seems to me, everyone should be happy if we could all just do what needs to be done!
This has always puzzle me too. Companies have been making gears and the other associated parts that are in a transaxle for years so there is no need for any sort of special equipment to manufacture these things and putting the transmission and differential in the same case shouldn't have anything to do with making them more difficult to manufacture. The only thing different here is the volume of them that is manufactured. A few dozen verses many hundreds or even thousands seems to be the only reason for the high prices.
 
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