The Price of Transaxles - Why are Transaxles Expensive?

[Jac Mac]

Russ, I agree with your post, and I believe Jac has the same position of no warranty for race parts. If I am not mistaken, Wanni advised Jac was wrong. That's all.

Gregg/Russ/Wanni, That is exactly correct and I dont believe there is any disaggreement, more a misunderstanding in the way Wanni & I write and express our thoughts.

Now, Wanni & any other Transaxle manufacturers out there, on the basis that I or any other owner/driver of a "Race Car" accepts that there is likely to be damage to my transaxle from the abuse it will receive and I do not require any form of warranty, I would like the transaxle to have the following qualities;
1.Be able to rebuild , alter ratios , at my own expense & in my own premises.
2.Be able to procure replacement parts in order to that.
3.Be able to do the above without specialised parts or tools.
4.Since this transaxle will be simple in concept & based on known component values with regard to strength & durability I DO NOT expect it to cost an arm & leg to purchase or buy parts for.
5.Cost per transaxle to be less than USD $10000.00.

Now before you all charge in and say it cannot be done and launch into a diatribe two pages long, bear this in mind. I dont ask questions like this without already knowing the correct answer!

Jac Mac

 

[BruceA]

I appreciate there is always going to be development, setup, testing and other costs associated with a new produce.

But wouldnt you think manufacturers learn from the last gearbox or product they produce??? Why would you go right back to zero and start all that again when you have already made, tested and produced products over the years previously that work? Why not just put what you already have learnt into the new gearbox??
I would believe that not all components are made by the one manufacturer. Fastening for instance, and syncros etc.
With the advent of Computer Aided Design, analysis software and CNC manufacturing you would think production costs and time has lessened?
Popping a steel blank into a CNC lathe then into a gear hob has got to be far easier than the days of having 100 people in front of their own lathe knocking out shafts? (and at the risk of tolerance indifference).
I know its not the best comparison, but look at mainstream manufacturers. Ford GM, Toyota etc are making easily 2000+ gearboxes a day in the one factory for their econoboxes. Ok, more plant, more people, but you get where Im coming from?

What is the most expensive part to produce on a gearbox then? CWP assembly, casings, gearsets?

I still find it hard to think that over the years litterly millions of gearboxes of all types have been produced -with all the pitfalls and issues ironed out - one would think that if a manufacturer took proven ideas and designs, an economically produced box can be done.

 

[wanni]

Gregg/Russ/Wanni, That is exactly correct and I dont believe there is any disaggreement, more a misunderstanding in the way Wanni & I write and express our thoughts.

Now, Wanni & any other Transaxle manufacturers out there, on the basis that I or any other owner/driver of a "Race Car" accepts that there is likely to be damage to my transaxle from the abuse it will receive and I do not require any form of warranty, I would like the transaxle to have the following qualities;
1.Be able to rebuild , alter ratios , at my own expense & in my own premises.
2.Be able to procure replacement parts in order to that.
3.Be able to do the above without specialised parts or tools.
4.Since this transaxle will be simple in concept & based on known component values with regard to strength & durability I DO NOT expect it to cost an arm & leg to purchase or buy parts for.
5.Cost per transaxle to be less than USD $10000.00.

Now before you all charge in and say it cannot be done and launch into a diatribe two pages long, bear this in mind. I dont ask questions like this without already knowing the correct answer!

Jac Mac

JAC,
when the USD will be back in his natural position, 1USD = 1,3 €, then my box will cost approximatly 11.000 USD.
1) It is not a problem at all to give you the sufficient knoledge to perform this point. I will be more then happy to welcome you at our assembly plant for instructing you. If you wish you can even assemble the box by your selve.
2) The replacement parts are available
3) If you are capable to settle up a bevel set without tools, I employ you right now.
4) It is made for a life of 80.000 kms with a driver 50% ( those are the parameters)
Nobody is sub evaluating your know how, but in state you ask in pubblic some questions, I shall think also about who has not your level of experience.
It is a forum, and the forum is made for giving to all the people the sufficients element for understanding before a list of 300 posts are written for asking more details....AM I WRONG?
Take care
Wanni

 

[wanni]

I appreciate there is always going to be development, setup, testing and other costs associated with a new produce.

But wouldnt you think manufacturers learn from the last gearbox or product they produce??? Why would you go right back to zero and start all that again when you have already made, tested and produced products over the years previously that work? Why not just put what you already have learnt into the new gearbox??
I would believe that not all components are made by the one manufacturer. Fastening for instance, and syncros etc.
With the advent of Computer Aided Design, analysis software and CNC manufacturing you would think production costs and time has lessened?
Popping a steel blank into a CNC lathe then into a gear hob has got to be far easier than the days of having 100 people in front of their own lathe knocking out shafts? (and at the risk of tolerance indifference).
I know its not the best comparison, but look at mainstream manufacturers. Ford GM, Toyota etc are making easily 2000+ gearboxes a day in the one factory for their econoboxes. Ok, more plant, more people, but you get where Im coming from?

What is the most expensive part to produce on a gearbox then? CWP assembly, casings, gearsets?

I still find it hard to think that over the years litterly millions of gearboxes of all types have been produced -with all the pitfalls and issues ironed out - one would think that if a manufacturer took proven ideas and designs, an economically produced box can be done.

Rambo,
I am writing as an OEM supplier.
The homologation rules are changing every year ( such a long box will not meet the future rear crashes rules )
It is a fact that actually if you do noy have at least 6 speeds, the product is obsolete. With the paddle shifting which gives some pleasure, even 7 speeds wont be too much.
We are too far from the 70's when you shall go to training before to drive a sport car. Just to give the right power to the left leg and the right arm. All the technologies are going ahead for increasing the torque, reducing the weight by the same time, reducing the noise level, reducing the forces and so on.
If I want to survive I MUST design a new box every 10 years.
If then somebody would like to be licensed to produce the exhisting one as an after market device, the door is open.
Understood??
Regards
Wanni

 

[Russ Noble]

Now before you all charge in and say it cannot be done and launch into a diatribe two pages long, bear this in mind. I dont ask questions like this without already knowing the correct answer!

Jac Mac

Questions Jac Mac?

I don't see a question mark anywhere in that entire post!

However you have just laid out the criteria for my next trans. Let me know when you find something that meets the requirements :lol: I'm sure myself and lots of other racers would seriously consider a trans like that.

It would be especially nice for GT40 guys if it was like the ZFQ and used an original looking housing and mounts.... How about an LG600 type? epper:

Cheers,

 

[wanni]

Russ,
use some diplomacy, pls.
Take care
Wanni

 

[Russ Noble]

Sorry Wanni,

When diplomacy was being handed out I got in the wrong que! . Although I'm not sure what was undiplomatic there......? Unless there's something you know that I don't know you know....

Love the inputs you give us on all this technical stuff.

Have a great day. Cheers,

 

[Jac Mac]

JAC,
when the USD will be back in his natural position, 1USD = 1,3 €, then my box will cost approximatly 11.000 USD.
1) It is not a problem at all to give you the sufficient knoledge to perform this point. I will be more then happy to welcome you at our assembly plant for instructing you. If you wish you can even assemble the box by your selve.
2) The replacement parts are available
3) If you are capable to settle up a bevel set without tools, I employ you right now.
4) It is made for a life of 80.000 kms with a driver 50% ( those are the parameters)
Nobody is sub evaluating your know how, but in state you ask in pubblic some questions, I shall think also about who has not your level of experience.
It is a forum, and the forum is made for giving to all the people the sufficients element for understanding before a list of 300 posts are written for asking more details....AM I WRONG?
Take care
Wanni

Wanni,

If I was a younger man & interested in travel I would consider your employment offer ( 3 )

Your reply & comments to 'Rambo Lambo' of being an OEM supplier and therefore having to continually upgrade to meet the market requirements are valid, BUT you also state that you would be prepared to licence a previous model that would be more in line with the requirements of the GT40 replica builders [ 4 or 5 speed- manual shift-TSD- and able to fit within the existing space parameters of the GT40 ).
Would it not be more cost effective for you to continue that unit in production as a 'plain jane' base model for this market, even build it heavier/stronger than reqd to satisfy a wide range of applications- and resist any temptation to upgrade or obsolete it?
Obviously there are other forum members who are thinking along the same lines .
cheers
Jac Mac

Russ,
I am sorry that I omitted the ???? question mark-- I must have been standing in the same " QUEUE " as you at punctuation class.

Jac Mac

 

[wanni]

Wanni,

If I was a younger man & interested in travel I would consider your employment offer ( 3 )

Your reply & comments to 'Rambo Lambo' of being an OEM supplier and therefore having to continually upgrade to meet the market requirements are valid, BUT you also state that you would be prepared to licence a previous model that would be more in line with the requirements of the GT40 replica builders [ 4 or 5 speed- manual shift-TSD- and able to fit within the existing space parameters of the GT40 ).
Would it not be more cost effective for you to continue that unit in production as a 'plain jane' base model for this market, even build it heavier/stronger than reqd to satisfy a wide range of applications- and resist any temptation to upgrade or obsolete it?
Obviously there are other forum members who are thinking along the same lines .
cheers
Jac Mac

Russ,
I am sorry that I omitted the ???? question mark-- I must have been standing in the same " QUEUE " as you at punctuation class.

Jac Mac

Jac,
by being an OEM, I have serious orders to garranty some time of production. This means that as soon as the client install the box and he is happy with, I can expect a project life of 3-4 years. By having 7-8 clients collecting between 10 and 25 units a year each, I can plan my production and believe that I have already enough troubles like that. It is not my intention to start an after market sale of transmissions which will take all the time I have. Believe that if somebody will do it taking all the risks, he is more then welcome. But with facts, no dreams. I do not have 1 hour a day to dedicate to this market. I would be happy to delegate someone else.
Specially in the other side of the ocean. I can not fly every week to US to solve problems.
Claro???
Regards
Wanni

 

[wanni]

One thing amuse me a lot.....
I haven't seen even one comment from another box builder......
Something is going wrong probably.

 

[Jac Mac]

Wanni,

" CLARO ???''

Yes, VERY!

Good Luck in the Market you are currently active in.

" Something is going wrong probably "........... You think? or you hope!

cheers
Jac Mac

 

[wanni]

Vielen Dank mein Freund.
Doktor Zahnrad

 

[rod brace]

wanni, i have liked and agreed w/all you have spoken about cost of manufacturing i have designed and built low speed gear reduction boxes and cant imagine the growth or swelling of different materials, diffrent densities almoving hopefully int the same planes,keeping noise and friction to a minium and fixing ang refixing things that didnt work or up to your high standards. i dohave a slight glimce to what is involved and the money and time spent! love to hear it from someone else and know that it never goes right for atleast the first three times! i may never beable to aford one of your boxes but im capeble of voiding its warranty with a big smile on my face!

 

[wanni]

wanni, i have liked and agreed w/all you have spoken about cost of manufacturing i have designed and built low speed gear reduction boxes and cant imagine the growth or swelling of different materials, diffrent densities almoving hopefully int the same planes,keeping noise and friction to a minium and fixing ang refixing things that didnt work or up to your high standards. i dohave a slight glimce to what is involved and the money and time spent! love to hear it from someone else and know that it never goes right for atleast the first three times! i may never beable to aford one of your boxes but im capeble of voiding its warranty with a big smile on my face!

Thanks a lot,
about materials, we shall consider that a very good steel, has a strenght resistence of 120Kg/mm2 - out of F1 technologies ( we are supplyers of Scuderia Ferrari ) we can reach 180 Kgs/mm2 today.
This means that the width of a gear 15 years ago was 15 mm. Now we transfer the same torque with 10 mm of width.
15 years ago the roughfness was 0,4 which is an accurate grinding. Today we are at 0,05 after a tribologic superfinishing. This will increase the efficiency to 99% from the previous 97%. But not happy, we can add a carbon coating capable to collect 0,5% more. It is unbelievable what the progress has done.
Ciao
Wanni

 

[Jonesy]

Wow what a great thread i stumbled accross. If only we had more people in these areas and knowlege so willingly to join forums.
WANNI- i appreciate and agree every comment and the knowlege you share with us, thank you.
Just curious, and proably a silly question but how much copyright comes into making these boxes. I have noticed a few boxes around which are very closly based on others or older models but updated. Here in Australia we have the 4 spd toploader which was a popular transmission. i remember reading somewhere about another new model trans that was an alomost copy but with 5th gear added maybe the T5 or Tremec model?
It seems your transmission are compleatly designed from scratch, however could you reference and slightly change proven designs or OEM other manufactuered parts to use, how closely is the Transmission market looked at as far as patents go and do you register you own patents frequently?
I have worked in Research and Design departments and know how huge this process can be. One product we designed which retailed for in the hundreads cost 10's of thousdands in R&D let alone wasted tooling and my and others own labour! I ended up redesigning the product to utilise exisitng components thus saving on the engineering and test procedures.....
Tieing this all together, if you designed a Transaxle case to take say a T56 gearset (internals from a T56 transmission) and you or someone elses differential, you would limit so much of you engineering process and as these parts are readily avilable in OEM or aftermarket you costs would only really come in the design of the case and modifications to allow a T56 gearset to run in a transaxle (with integral diff obviously). Small amount of manufacturing and R&D and i think there would be good profits in such an item?
I have also dealt with manufacturers who have had parts built in countries such as India, China and Korea and let me tell you its not as simple as it sounds. The idea is sound due to cheap labout but you need to order worthwhile quantities and make sure that factory is up to scratch or you will only recieve junk.
Just some thoughts from a backyard wanabe engineer
Thanks

 

[fostereast]

Copyright

Copyright probably does not apply in this case. Patents do however.

 

[Jonesy]

yeah i thought of this but assumed there would be some way around it as so many manufactureres offer replcaement parts but stronger. ie a few places offer stronger gear sets for T56 yet are not infringing. Either way my point was take a proven desing and make a transaxle out of it sell it as a modified trans or something and it would clear these titles as many race trans builders seem to do?

 

[Mike]

First of, I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been stated.

Cheaper Mendeola boxes are exactly what you guys are asking about. They are a combination of a VW Bus tranny and a Ford 9" R&P in a custom case. They run about $5k but will not hold up to serious abuse for long periods. The more expensive all custom Mendys will, but now your back up to $10-$15k again.

Your logic seems correct, that a nice box should be able to be made "off the shelf" for under $10k. It follows that a strong, proven box should be able to be mated to a Ford 9" or something even bigger for that price. All that should be needed is a case, and new/custom main and idler shafts. Apparently there is more to it, or certainly someone would have done it by now.

IMHO, for the quality of parts and the precision that is required, $15k isn't out of line for any of these transaxles that can handle better than 750 HP/Trq. That's really a very tall order.

 

[BruceA]

Your logic seems correct, that a nice box should be able to be made "off the shelf" for under $10k. It follows that a strong, proven box should be able to be mated to a Ford 9" or something even bigger for that price. All that should be needed is a case, and new/custom main and idler shafts. Apparently there is more to it, or certainly someone would have done it by now.

How would you connect the secondary shaft to the pinion gear if you are using an off-the-shelf r/p set? the Ford unit is splined but would make the gearbox a lot longer to cater for having a splined sleeve to connect the shaft/pinion gear.

I had a thought that the Ford pinion gear could be modified like this:
* machine off the axle part of the pinion gear to leave just the teeth area
* machine in (spark erode) a new internal spine into the pinion gear
* make a new secondary shaft to suit the gear bearing positions and a shrink-fit spline on the end to fit into the Ford pinion gear, with a circlip on the end to positively locate it as well.

That would give you a new shaft with pinion gear on the end, and very short as well.

Since most 'normal' gearboxes use a layshaft with fixed gear sets on them, this secondary shaft would only need to contain the bearings to support the layshaft gearset.
Obviously, the gearset would need to have an enlarged bore and perhaps a set of 3 bearings for adequate support, but you get the idea here.

Oh and this secondary shaft would have a splined end on the 'other end' of from the pinion gear. This would have one of the gearset on it that transferrs power from the input shaft above it with the matching gear on its end.

 

[Mike]

The R&P is usually part of the idler shaft on transaxles. Some of the Hewland and VW boxes use a removable pinion crown gear, but if strength is desired, usually a splined shaft with changable gear sets is used that incorporates the pinion gear as an integral part of that shaft.

Are you talking about using a set of drop gears to adjust final ratio with the splined gear on the end of the "secondary shaft"? Drop gears, while very easy to incorporate in a standard box by splitting the main shaft, are rather difficult in transaxles. Usually a third shaft is required.