Tragic accident in Germany.

Hi Guys

Sad news is that I received this morning is that tragically Juergen Schenten was tragically killed whilst driving a CAV GT40 in Germany on one of their Autobahns.

I understand that Juergen was the appointed dealer for CAV Germany.

On behalf of the Forum I wish to give our sincere condolences to his family and friends.

Chris Melia

 

[Bill Bayard]

Very sad and sobering news indeed!

It was only a matter of time before a tragedy like this hit our little community. It's so easy to forget how dangerous this hobby/sport can be.
Fun, one instant, horrific, the next!

I hope that everybody willl learn from this, and try to be more careful out
there!



Bill

 

[David Briggs]

CAV crash

What happened?

 

This sad photo is the CAV GT40 after the accident.

 

hi Guys

I think this displays the necessity for a full roll cage in these cars.

Chris.

 

[Kristian Wraae]

It's difficult to make out from the picture, but did it catch fire too? It's looks like some of the bodywork has melted.

I don't know much about the fuel tanks on these cars but are they made with a rubber cell? If not that might be something to consider. Having two fuel tanks right next to the cabine is quite dangerous.

These cars were designed in an era when driver safty was not at the top of the list.

 

[Ron Earp]

hi Guys

I think this displays the necessity for a full roll cage in these cars.

Chris.

A tragic accident to be sure.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I wouldn't have three years ago before I started racing etc., but I do now. I used to sort of think that it'll be okay to not have a cage for track days and occasional high speed blasts, but there is simply not enough protection for my comfort level. I know lots of folks don't have cages and everything is okay, but my personal opinion is that I want to have one, and want to have a good one. Once you get used to the security (and fantastic chassis strenghening offered!) of a good cage you feel naked without one.

Some clubs that run track days are starting to take note too, or at least some of their instructors that race are raising some eyebrows. After some high profile accidents involving instructors/students at their track days it appears some instructors are expressing concern over the level of speeds reached with respect to safety equipment. A club member might own a hotted up XYZ turbo/blower that is capable of speeds that far exceed a club level race car, but have nothing but DOT seat belts to keep the occupants in the car.

Sure, a track day isn't racing, but anyone who has seen the recent video that is circulating the net of the 944 student/instructor COMPLETELY rolling the car during a Porsche Club Drivers Education event knows it can happen. Not to mention that new Porsche GT that was totalled in another event, and a Ferrari to that resulted in a death (maybe two deaths, can't rememer?).

In general a cage makes it hard to get in and out of a 40 or similar sports car, but I think it is worth it. Be safe.

Ron

 

[Trevor Booth]

IMHO, dont think a cage of any sort would have prevented a fatality in this instance. The collision appears to be akin to running under the back of a flat tray truck. The photograph may not be the 'at rest' position post collision.

Roll cages are fine for rollovers, (hence the name). The crash barrier in this instance is the faulty party, a single ARMCO rail is lethal even at low speed. To have them on an Autobahn is crazy.

 

[TimB]

I think we may be making an invalid assumption looking at that pic and the relation of the roof to the car. I would bet it was removed by the rescue workers to gain access to the occupant rather than sliced off running under something as there is no deformation to the roof

 

[Pat]

Tragic Accident in Germany

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of Juergen.

Is there any newspaper coverage of the accident?

 

[Ron Earp]

Roll cages are fine for rollovers, (hence the name). The crash barrier in this instance is the faulty party, a single ARMCO rail is lethal even at low speed. To have them on an Autobahn is crazy.

I have to agree, might not have helped in this case. But, they are far more useful than just in rollover accidents. Side bars can be used preventing side impact intrusion, a dash bar to prevent side to side chassis collapse, forward bars to prevent pedal box/foot area collapse, etc. Don't know that any of those would have helped here though.

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

Thoughts and prayers. IMO when you drive one of these cars you should act like you're on a Bike and use extreme care.

 

CAV Crash

Roll cages and Fuel cells are a must IMO.! I had three fires while racing my Lotus Europa. I never knew I could move so fast! A roll cage also works pretty well when someone's body work comes flying off and lands on your roof. I had a wheel bounce off my roof also, rool bar saved my head on that one! I know I can't put on the helmet, gloves, racing suit and arm the fire suppression system every time I run to the store, but I'm almost tempted the way people drive around Boston, you never know when something stupid might happen! There shouldn't be any argument when it comes to safty gear!
Next time I'm out at Fran Hall's and he drives to lunch, I'm bringing my helmet!!! Just kidding Fran!

 

[Keith]

Roll cages are fine for rollovers, (hence the name). The crash barrier in this instance is the faulty party, a single ARMCO rail is lethal even at low speed. To have them on an Autobahn is crazy.

Sympathies to Juergens family - it's a tragic waste as are all road deaths.

Nota, sorry, Trevor - I don't quite understand your comment re: single ARMCO, as this is clearly on the hard shoulder, not the central divider - and the rail, presumably, is to prevent a car from diving down a steep bank. Are you saying there should be no ARMCO at all or double ARMCO or perhaps something else?

Whilst we're on the ARMCO subject, I understood the idea of it is to contain a collision and be able to "give" allowing the vehicle to run along the barrier and slow it down through friction, and not throw it back into the traffic flow. Some of the very early experiments I rememember in the '60's had the ARMCO secured with wooden posts which snapped under a collision load leaving a flexible ribbon of metal to slow the car down. Has this all now changed? I have noticed that the construction is much more robust these days, and doubled for central dividers, although they certainly cannot contain an HGV from a frontal assault.

 

[Howard Jones]

MV6, is dead on correct! These cars must be treated as if you are on a 100+ hp super bike! Nobody sees you, the cabin's blind spots act just like a helmet on a bike, they are very fast and tail happy and will get you going much faster than you can stop quicker than you can spit. If you haven't done any track days with your car, do so. It will slow you down when street driving. I promise.

ROLL CAGE, The front bars that come up from the chassis along the A pillar on my car are there to keep out the minivan in a side impact. The rest is to provide as much bracing as possible to the front hoop. Together, front hoop and top double braces, I would hope will keep out anything I might run under. Of course all this is within REASON. See 1st paragraph.

BELTS, the mounts need to be at least checked out for suitability when used with a 5-6 point harness system . Nice big strong bolts through nice big load spreading mounting plates is a good start. Also the mounting points themselves need to meet the belt manufacturers recommendations. Remember Dale Earnhardt.

FIRE, Start with a on-board fire system and add a handheld. I put mine in to save the car in a rear engine room type problem mainly but one of the two nozzles is also under the dash pointed at the drivers chest.

If anyone knows of a aftermarket fuel cell that would fit in one of our side pods then that would be the most important fire safety addition. If you needed to save money you could put one in in the passenger side for track days and drain the other conventional tank on the other side. 8 gals would be enough for most track day sessions of about 20-30 Min's.

Lastly...... God bless the family and friends in a terrible situation like this one. My prayers are on the way.

 

[Dan W]

Looks like a front impact, and a fire for sure. The dash is melted, all the stainless is black and the front susp. is gone.I saved the pic and then enlarged it. The two doors are over by the guard rail, the top areas sheered off of both.Terrible tragedy.

 

[Trevor Booth]

Keith,
Not offended by Nota salutation, that is the name of a racing car I have had since 1966. Things have changed in the ARMCO world. The original idea was to be a containment device c/w wooden posts. Apart from the posts snapping off, wooden post absorbs a deal of energy in itself + the earth etc. But that costs money to maintain. Some bright spark which I refer to as a 40W light globe in a 100W position, decided that money could be saved with steel posts concreted in !!. One of my extra curricular activities is investigating fatal MV accidents for the Coroner. Traditionally ARMCO barriers are placed at the "bumper height" this was ok for HEAVY 60s cars but as cars got lower lighter and faster they became less effective. And you should see what they do to a motorbike!. In this particular instance the vehicle appears to have underun the ARMCO at some particular place, now if the ARMCO had been double this would not have occurred. The structural portions of the vehicle have not hit the ARMCO so very little energy would have been dissipated by the initial impact. There are better systems around with the ARMCO 'softly' mounted, there is a multi wire cable system, and there is the good old concrete "jersey barrier" still one of the most effective.

Whilst we dont have available all of the circumstances of this accident a more effective barrier may well have lessened the impact.

It is a tragedy that any body should lose a life when something more effective may well save it!

 

[Keith]

Thanks for the up-to-date explanation Trev. If ARMCo is set in concrete and therefore unmoveable, it is in no position to absorb any impact and would tend to catapult a vehicle back into the road - totally opposite to it's original design concept. I also hadn't thought of what happens to a low slung sports car or motorbike either. In fact, we take all these things for granted - and there's me thinking road safety had improved!

Isn't it true that we get all cosy in our cocoon and never spare a thought for what would happen should a tyre burst, or some idiot sideswipe you? It takes an incident like this to wake us up to the dangers of the public roads.

 

[GregF]

It's posts like these that really bring home the quality of both this Forum and its members.

If nothing else, this tragic accident has certainly confirmed a roll cage, full harness and on board fire system for me. When you think of the light weight, low height and power to weight ratio, it only takes one idiot on the street or track to wipe the smile off your dial. One member likened driving a '40 to riding a motorbike, which is probably the most sensible thing I have read on this forum for a while.

And let's face it - how many owners of a '40 are not going to "drive it like ya stole it" occasionally?

Sincere sympathies to all involved - maybe just a tiny little bit of good will come from it.

Cheers
Greg

 

[Trevor Booth]

Next time you drive around the streets, take a look at all the man made objects convenieintly place by '40W light globes'

Just imagine what a steel fence post, a paling fence, a temp roadwork sign can do to the human body.

There are a lot of innocent motorist that gets bumped off the road by a lunatic.

There are a lot of road conditions that cause collisions and propel cars off the road way.

I can give you a litany of causes due to carelessness and money saving pollies.

On board fire extinguisher, great Idea, but think about what you are sitting in, all flammable stuff, choose wisely your soft furnishings.